Handgun wound ballistics

wow... so not much difference between 9mm and .40s&w in terms of damage done, eh?
interesting study. thanks.
 
Not sure if it varies from detachment to detachment, but, the Coquitlam RCMP are using some big USA make (Winchester?) in 147gr. Hollow Point obviously.
 
I see that the report was published in 1994 . Its too bad they did not test the Hornady TAP CQ ammo.. or even the newer Hornady FXT ammo.. The TAP ammo comes in 9mm at 40 S&W but the FXT does not seem to come in these two calibers.. Just wondering...
 
well the 9 mm should perform close to a .357. its almost the same dia. 9mm to inches = .354 so other than velocity it should be about the same i think( just a guess). i didnt look at the report though.
 
Not sure if it varies from detachment to detachment, but, the Coquitlam RCMP are using some big USA make (Winchester?) in 147gr. Hollow Point obviously.

That would probably be some Ranger SXT stuff.
 
... Bear in mind the "switch" to a Pistol from the Revolver wasn't so much a question of the 147 SWCHP ( the so called FBI Load) not performing, but rather that the Model 10 Revolvers were reaching the end of their Service Life. And both ammunition and parts, were becoming more expensive and harder to obtain, in sufficient quantities. Also there was the perceived need for greater firepower, and since spending the kind of money involved anyway, add on "Night Sights" and make it in Stainless Steel. .... David K ....
 
Good information.

Does anyone know what brand of cartridge the RCMP now uses?

Well around here, they use Winchester Ranger SXT's and Remington Golden Sabres. Both in the 147 gr variety I'm sure. Whatever "the company" gets a better deal on. Both good choices. And WinClean for practice, or whatever's cheap.
 
Doesn't mean anything when 90% of the rounds fail to hit the target anyway.... let alone vital organs.

This from your own experience? :p

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NAA.
 
What they always fail to do is test the amount of deviation for each specific round. Sure, the 9mms performed close to the .40s, expanding an average of .1" less, penetrating a few inches more (a good thing, in my opinion), but upon hitting a rib, how straight did the wound path remain? A bullet will often hit a bone or something and may well deviate off course, going from a well-placed vital shot to a flesh wound, especially if that object is at an angle, as the bullet will encounter much more matter than if it was going straight at the matter.

What I'm getting at is, there are three reliable wounding factors.

First is penetration. You need to be able to reliably get deep enough. I think the more, the better. I would be more confident with an over-penetrating round, as if anything gets in the way, like an arm or something, I can be more sure that my bullet will still be able to reach a vital organ. In handgun rounds, velocity will usually lead to more penetration, all other factors being equal.

Second is resistance to deviation. If the bullet can go deep enough, can it go deep enough while going where I pointed it to? If it hits that hypothetical arm, encountering most of the forearm muscle, as well as a bone, will it remain on it's path towards the intended spot it was first sent to? Bullet weight is usually the deciding factor in the resistance to deviation.

Third is size of wound channel. Let's say you have the first two factors down, but the wound channel is small, there is a higher chance the bullet might squeeze it's way between vitals. Organs, nerves, blood vessels and arteries are close together, but even a shot to a vital organ can end up just skinning it. Even then, there is likelihood of the damage to the organ being insufficient, and not ending up with incapacitation. The main factors for a large wound channel is the proper bullet construction and it's diameter.

Now those are the terminal effects I look for. Things like "stopping power" (a term I HATE with all my might) and "energy" have an effect, but it's subjective to the target's state. Even the most powerful caliber with the most energy and the most insane punch and "stopping power" and "hydrostatic shock" (insert more buzzwords here) WILL NOT BE WORTH A SINGLE S****T IF THE VITALS ARE NOT REACHED AND SUFFICIENTLY DAMAGED. Only, I repeat, only the sufficient damage to vitals will lead to a sure and quick incapacitation.

Sadly, they conflict with the human factor of shooting successfully and accurately. Factors like recovery of sight picture from recoil, ergonomics of grip, price of practice ammunition, of firearm, and many many more come into play when choosing a caliber. But that's not what this is about! That said, I think a heavier bullet at high velocities with a reliable expansion and sufficient diameter is putting odds in favor.

CCI GD 9mm 147grs and CCI GD .40S&W 180grs would be my pick. Only a very hot loaded .45ACP of the right weight and type would float my boat and would fill my three terminal effect checklist. Still then, the .45's diameter makes it eat up magazine capacity, and makes double stack mags quite large, and it isn't so for .40s and 9s.

/ballistics rant.

Oh if I'm mistaken somewhere, I'll review my words if there's enough proof/justification.
 
Just to update this one, we currently are using either Winchester Ranger SXT or Remington Golden Sabers. Both in 147 grain weight. They both shoot quite accurately in my 5946 Smith and Wesson. The Remmy's definitely have more muzzle flash in low light. The Winchesters chronied slightly slower from my pistol. Let's face it, the pistol should only be used to fight your way back to your shotgun that should not have been left in the car in the first place. I don't think caliber matters much in handguns as almost all auto pistol calibers are poor "killers" when the chips are down. Patrol rifles are where it's at and shotguns are still the great short range equalizers.
 
Just to update this one, we currently are using either Winchester Ranger SXT or Remington Golden Sabers. Both in 147 grain weight. They both shoot quite accurately in my 5946 Smith and Wesson. The Remmy's definitely have more muzzle flash in low light. The Winchesters chronied slightly slower from my pistol. Let's face it, the pistol should only be used to fight your way back to your shotgun that should not have been left in the car in the first place. I don't think caliber matters much in handguns as almost all auto pistol calibers are poor "killers" when the chips are down. Patrol rifles are where it's at and shotguns are still the great short range equalizers.

That looks good to me, even if I'm a Gold Dot guy. Keep on trucking.
 
I have never shot anything bigger than a porcupine with a pistol.

But I have shot my share of deer and moose, and twice have seen a bullet take a big deflection after going exactly where I aimed.

The last time was a 338Win Mag at a moose trotting towards me. Distance was about 20 feet. I hit the sternum. Bullet deflected and ran the length of the moose, along the outside of the ribcage. Bullet was a heavy weight premium bullet.

This was why I was impressed that the RCMP test included adding pig ribs to learn about he issue of bullet deflection and break up.

I have done a fair amount of gelatin testing and it helps compare bullets, but does not really represent the real world. Hunters know more about that. And pathologists.
 
Just to update this one, we currently are using either Winchester Ranger SXT or Remington Golden Sabers. Both in 147 grain weight. They both shoot quite accurately in my 5946 Smith and Wesson. The Remmy's definitely have more muzzle flash in low light. The Winchesters chronied slightly slower from my pistol. Let's face it, the pistol should only be used to fight your way back to your shotgun that should not have been left in the car in the first place. I don't think caliber matters much in handguns as almost all auto pistol calibers are poor "killers" when the chips are down. Patrol rifles are where it's at and shotguns are still the great short range equalizers.

The above post is your answer. Shot placement is far more important than what you place there.

TDC
 
I have never shot anything bigger than a porcupine with a pistol.

But I have shot my share of deer and moose, and twice have seen a bullet take a big deflection after going exactly where I aimed.

The last time was a 338Win Mag at a moose trotting towards me. Distance was about 20 feet. I hit the sternum. Bullet deflected and ran the length of the moose, along the outside of the ribcage. Bullet was a heavy weight premium bullet.

This was why I was impressed that the RCMP test included adding pig ribs to learn about he issue of bullet deflection and break up.

I have done a fair amount of gelatin testing and it helps compare bullets, but does not really represent the real world. Hunters know more about that. And pathologists.

The issue in that moose shot might have been the angle of the sternum. Hitting a bone flat on isn't like hitting a bone at a sloping angle, it's probably why there are many reports of bears living through heavy caliber headshots. The shape of the meplat can also magnify this, this is usually why pointy bullets can punch through and most of all, straight through stuff.

I'm still saying, that was a strange case, and I believe you put the odds in your favor, but that's just what they are - odds. Anything can happen!
 
Doesn't mean anything when 90% of the rounds fail to hit the target anyway.... let alone vital organs.

After having sat in on a couple of RCMP qualification shoots, I would say that's a good point. Although they do field a talented shooter now and then, that crummy DAO pistol is of little help. One step forward two steps back. If there is no practical value for DA on a pistol, and there's not, then one can only wonder at the high minded decision to go with a DAO. Everyone knows that it is easier to score well with a 4 MOA rifle with a glass rod trigger than it is a half minute rifle with a long squishy pull, yet when the discussion turns to pistols what do they choose? I don't know if anyone's noticed, but there has been no improvement in the design of the fighting pistol since the 1911, P-35, or the CZ-75. There is little point in making a 2 MOA pistol when 10 MOA accuracy wins the fight, so instead they configure the pistol to make it even harder to hit anything with. Surely that will be cheaper than adequate training with a good gun.
 
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