.223?
- Thread starter TheGamerXxX
- Start date
If you an ethical hunter you will only use a .223 on varmint class game. While legal in most provinces to hunt big game the .223 lacks enough power to ethically harvest large game. Please note I am not saying it won't kill big game, a .22LR will kill big game, just that there are many many more cartridges that will do the job MUCH better. Show respect for your game and use an appropriate cartridge!
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other as long as it's legal in your area, but I do remember reading something someone posted on this forum a few days ago that said something along the lines of "Nato has been using .223 to hunt deer sized humans for a while."
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
First off let me say at the outset that I disapprove of big game hunting with mouse guns. However that does not prevent some people from doing so and even from having success with the sub calibers. Northerners, both native and white have killed truck loads of caribou, moose, black bears, and even polar bears with these things. A few years ago a fellow I loaded some .22-250 ammo for killed a moose with his, the load by the way drove a 55 gr Remington bulk bullet at .223 velocity. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the load you choose should have a reasonable expectation of killing the game you hunt with a single shot from any angle within the range limitations of the cartridge and shooter. If your experience prevents you from making that assessment, a cartridge from a 6.5 to the .30/06 is the correct answer. Small bores and excessively powerful cartridges should be left to the experts.
hunting with a 223
sure you can kill a deer with a 223 or like some of the others said other larger animals with the proper bullet and bullet placement . but there's nothing like wounding something and haveing it run off into the woods . go for a 270 and get it over with . I have shot tons of critters with a 223 with the 110p savage and when it used to be okay with the AR15 I used to have . and if I was useing softpoint or hollowpoint ammo they would croke. if i was useing full metal jacketed stuff and had'nt made a head shot then it would take a couple to kill it . are you a good or better shot ???? if you are'nt well versed in marksmanship then take a 270.
sure you can kill a deer with a 223 or like some of the others said other larger animals with the proper bullet and bullet placement . but there's nothing like wounding something and haveing it run off into the woods . go for a 270 and get it over with . I have shot tons of critters with a 223 with the 110p savage and when it used to be okay with the AR15 I used to have . and if I was useing softpoint or hollowpoint ammo they would croke. if i was useing full metal jacketed stuff and had'nt made a head shot then it would take a couple to kill it . are you a good or better shot ???? if you are'nt well versed in marksmanship then take a 270.
I have every confidence that my .223 loaded with either the 60 gr noslers or similar bullet designed to kill deer will get the job done anytime I ask of it. I do have some self imposed restrictions though, 200 yards or less, non moving target, not at last light and most important to me, no texas heart shots or similar poor angles.
I'd like to add if you aren't confident in one shot one kill you shouldn't be out there yet anyway (or taking that particular shot), I don't care how big of a rifle you're carrying.
I'd like to add if you aren't confident in one shot one kill you shouldn't be out there yet anyway (or taking that particular shot), I don't care how big of a rifle you're carrying.
Lots of opinions here- but not a lot of fact presented.
I concur with the concept of responsibility- if you're going to kill something, do it in a humane and responsible manner.
First off, the weapon has to deliver the projectile to the right place on the animal. I suggest that a heart/lung shot is the best- if only because you will have a better chance of hitting something critical, and if the shock of the strike doesn't drop the animal, then significant blood loss will, and fairly quickly.
I submit that everyone who takes a head shot is risking watching a deer run off with a hanging jaw- not a great way to die.
Next is to determine if the kinetic energy of the round is enough to safely kill the animal. Most sources (including Provincial game regs) require a minimum of 900 ft/lbs of energy at the target. As you know, potential energy decreases as the velocity decreases, so the longer the range the less energy produced on impact.
Next, determine if your projectile will properly transfer that kinetic energy. A round that goes through the animal does NOT transfer all it's energy. A round that does not go through the animal does. Generally, a projectile that holds together well, and increases it's diameter as it travels through tissue works well (mushrooming projectile)
Note that varmint rounds tend to either punch straight through an animal, or enter and disintegrate. Most of the amnition for sale locally is either target or varmint rounds- meaning you may want to look at reloading. Lots of good sp bullets out there, in decent weights. Think 69gr and above.
Loads of good info on the web about wound channels, terminal ballistics and effects, and downrange kinetic energy- as well as charts that will predict your energy at various ranges.
Having said all of that, there are .223 projectiles out there that will transfer enough energy to cleanly and humanely kill a deer- providing you do your part.
Respectfully, one more thing: asking questions without doing at least a little research on your own makes me wonder if you'll take the time to get good enough to do your part...no flame, just an observation.
Cheers
I concur with the concept of responsibility- if you're going to kill something, do it in a humane and responsible manner.
First off, the weapon has to deliver the projectile to the right place on the animal. I suggest that a heart/lung shot is the best- if only because you will have a better chance of hitting something critical, and if the shock of the strike doesn't drop the animal, then significant blood loss will, and fairly quickly.
I submit that everyone who takes a head shot is risking watching a deer run off with a hanging jaw- not a great way to die.
Next is to determine if the kinetic energy of the round is enough to safely kill the animal. Most sources (including Provincial game regs) require a minimum of 900 ft/lbs of energy at the target. As you know, potential energy decreases as the velocity decreases, so the longer the range the less energy produced on impact.
Next, determine if your projectile will properly transfer that kinetic energy. A round that goes through the animal does NOT transfer all it's energy. A round that does not go through the animal does. Generally, a projectile that holds together well, and increases it's diameter as it travels through tissue works well (mushrooming projectile)
Note that varmint rounds tend to either punch straight through an animal, or enter and disintegrate. Most of the amnition for sale locally is either target or varmint rounds- meaning you may want to look at reloading. Lots of good sp bullets out there, in decent weights. Think 69gr and above.
Loads of good info on the web about wound channels, terminal ballistics and effects, and downrange kinetic energy- as well as charts that will predict your energy at various ranges.
Having said all of that, there are .223 projectiles out there that will transfer enough energy to cleanly and humanely kill a deer- providing you do your part.
Respectfully, one more thing: asking questions without doing at least a little research on your own makes me wonder if you'll take the time to get good enough to do your part...no flame, just an observation.
Cheers
TheGamerXxX
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- North of the 49, Manitoba
Well first. I don't believe the ar is an "assault" rifle but to each their own.
Second the rifle I'm shooting is the H&K SL8 in 223.
My other option might be an SKS(762x39) I might be picking up. I am not proficient with either and I doubt I would go ever bigger then deer.
I'm just asking the edumacated people before I get asked myself.
So this is what I got so far:
legal
not entirely reccomended
heavier bullets=better
sub 200 yard shots for a "skilled" shooter.
Go with a bigger caliber given a choice
Pretty much sums it up?
To add all I got for ammo is 55gr "range" practice ammo and I know I'd have to get heavier ammo so from what I gathered around the 65gr is the way to go for "accurate" ammo
thanks for the words of wisdom.
Luke
Second the rifle I'm shooting is the H&K SL8 in 223.
My other option might be an SKS(762x39) I might be picking up. I am not proficient with either and I doubt I would go ever bigger then deer.
I'm just asking the edumacated people before I get asked myself.
So this is what I got so far:
legal
not entirely reccomended
heavier bullets=better
sub 200 yard shots for a "skilled" shooter.
Go with a bigger caliber given a choice
Pretty much sums it up?
To add all I got for ammo is 55gr "range" practice ammo and I know I'd have to get heavier ammo so from what I gathered around the 65gr is the way to go for "accurate" ammo
thanks for the words of wisdom.
Luke
If you're admitting you lack some proficiency; practice, practice, practice and practice some more.
Forget about buying the sks for a little while save up and buy yourself a good used .25 to .30 cal hunting rifle, personal fave would be a 7mm-08 or 270 win
Forget about buying the sks for a little while save up and buy yourself a good used .25 to .30 cal hunting rifle, personal fave would be a 7mm-08 or 270 win
Nice yarn Garry, here's mine.
I haven't hunted since my early 20's, a looong time ago. If I had gone after anything bigger than a partridge with a 22 cal I'd have had my ass kicked by my old man, all my uncles and anyone else in our community who heard about it. They were right to feel that way.
I'll tell you who else was right. The US military, among others, who selected the 5.56 for its inherent ability to wound rather than kill. Anyone think of that one?
Yep, I do read, and I've read enough ballistics #### to know that when someone goes into "energyspeak", they've got a cartridge for sale. What is not contentious is this. Big bullets kill ! If you want it down, give it the grains. That same military I mentioned wants their 308's back. Wonder why ?
Sixty grains JamesM ? Is there any meat left ? Your opinion as to who should "be out there" might serve you best as a private matter.
You sharp shooters can go on about shot placement all you want. You're giving your own sport a bad name.
I haven't hunted since my early 20's, a looong time ago. If I had gone after anything bigger than a partridge with a 22 cal I'd have had my ass kicked by my old man, all my uncles and anyone else in our community who heard about it. They were right to feel that way.
I'll tell you who else was right. The US military, among others, who selected the 5.56 for its inherent ability to wound rather than kill. Anyone think of that one?
Yep, I do read, and I've read enough ballistics #### to know that when someone goes into "energyspeak", they've got a cartridge for sale. What is not contentious is this. Big bullets kill ! If you want it down, give it the grains. That same military I mentioned wants their 308's back. Wonder why ?
Sixty grains JamesM ? Is there any meat left ? Your opinion as to who should "be out there" might serve you best as a private matter.
You sharp shooters can go on about shot placement all you want. You're giving your own sport a bad name.
TheGamerXxX
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- North of the 49, Manitoba
To be fair I have never hunted but have been asked to go out on a few occasions. I don't claim to have superior skills or knowledge. Bit I do choose do educate myself to something I might do in the future. I'm no sharpshooter by far. I punch holes in paper with pistols mainly then my AR15 then shotgun etc.
I have very limited knowledge of balistics, and of what some bullets can do. I figure who better to ask then the people doing it.
I can go and google charts and graphs but to me that doesn't help me.
Edit••• I'm not looking to hunt every season, or invest a lot of money in somethin I might try once. I'm jut trying to get info of what I can do with what I already have.
Luke
I have very limited knowledge of balistics, and of what some bullets can do. I figure who better to ask then the people doing it.
I can go and google charts and graphs but to me that doesn't help me.
Edit••• I'm not looking to hunt every season, or invest a lot of money in somethin I might try once. I'm jut trying to get info of what I can do with what I already have.
Luke
Can you reference where you got that info?
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Have you ever seen a shot at an animal's head from either directly in front, with the animal facing you, or directly behind with the animal facing away? There's not much of a chance of wounding, except maybe if you hit an ear. I won't take broadside head shots, but facing either toward or away, if I hit, it's DRT, if I miss, I miss cleanly.
Potential energy is nothing to do with it, and the whole energy argument is nearly irrelevant anyways. If the bullet has enough velocity (and therefore kinetic energy) to initiate expansion upon impact, it will do its job properly. Energy really only becomes significant in the case of terminal performance when we're talking about threshold energy needed to overcome a barrier, such as heavy bone, etc.
The necessity for a bullet to expend all its energy within the animal is rhetoric that lost its credibility during the '90s.
This is great advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKMark23
...
I'll tell you who else was right. The US military, among others, who selected the 5.56 for its inherent ability to wound rather than kill. Anyone think of that one? ...
Wounding is desireable. Rapid firing at a human centre of mass is not like taking an aimed shot in the vitals of a deer. It's all wounding anyway. Some wounding results in immediate death some wounding is non-fatal. It takes more people and resources to deal with a wounded (non-fatal) soldier than it takes to deal with a dead soldier. The 7.62X51 could be described as more than what is required...meaning that death or severe wounding can be inflicted by a lighter round. A soldier can carry twice the amount of 5.56 over 7.62.......more bullets available to send downrage is better. Cost is another factory for the selection of the 5.56 cartridge.
Still, it's not a recommended cartridge for big game.
Originally Posted by HKMark23
...
I'll tell you who else was right. The US military, among others, who selected the 5.56 for its inherent ability to wound rather than kill. Anyone think of that one? ...
Wounding is desireable. Rapid firing at a human centre of mass is not like taking an aimed shot in the vitals of a deer. It's all wounding anyway. Some wounding results in immediate death some wounding is non-fatal. It takes more people and resources to deal with a wounded (non-fatal) soldier than it takes to deal with a dead soldier. The 7.62X51 could be described as more than what is required...meaning that death or severe wounding can be inflicted by a lighter round. A soldier can carry twice the amount of 5.56 over 7.62.......more bullets available to send downrage is better. Cost is another factory for the selection of the 5.56 cartridge.
Still, it's not a recommended cartridge for big game.
The US adopting the 5.56 as a wounding cartridge is a myth. They did not adopt it for that reason and did not design it as such either. There are countless articles out there that have cleared that one up. Also, as someone has already pointed out, we are not hunting deer with FMJ's here. Deer are not armour plated, they don't come from Jurassic Park, and can be responsibly killed with a .223.
While using "enough gun" can equal responsible hunting to some extent, it really doesn't define responsible hunting in and of itself. Responsible hunting is about not taking shots that you should not take. Taking that "hail mary" at a deer hundreds of yards away just because you are toting some .300 wonder mangle-em is no more responsible than perhaps using some other caliber at closer ranges.
Taking well aimed shots at ranges similar to what you practice at is responsible. Knowing what your chosen cartridge can do at those particular ranges is also responsible and ethical too. Using correct bullets for the intended game also plays into this equation. So, can the .223 responsibly take deer? Of course. Use it as a relatively short to medium range rifle at best and you will be ok. Use controlled expansion bullets (of which there are many that were specifically designed for deer) instead of rapid expanding or fragmenting varmint bullets and you will get reliable performance on the lung shot deer.
Don't take "texas-heartshots" on deer running away. Don't take shots at deer out of your practiced range and you will have your deer. Those guidelines should be considered no matter the caliber you are carrying.
While using "enough gun" can equal responsible hunting to some extent, it really doesn't define responsible hunting in and of itself. Responsible hunting is about not taking shots that you should not take. Taking that "hail mary" at a deer hundreds of yards away just because you are toting some .300 wonder mangle-em is no more responsible than perhaps using some other caliber at closer ranges.
Taking well aimed shots at ranges similar to what you practice at is responsible. Knowing what your chosen cartridge can do at those particular ranges is also responsible and ethical too. Using correct bullets for the intended game also plays into this equation. So, can the .223 responsibly take deer? Of course. Use it as a relatively short to medium range rifle at best and you will be ok. Use controlled expansion bullets (of which there are many that were specifically designed for deer) instead of rapid expanding or fragmenting varmint bullets and you will get reliable performance on the lung shot deer.
Don't take "texas-heartshots" on deer running away. Don't take shots at deer out of your practiced range and you will have your deer. Those guidelines should be considered no matter the caliber you are carrying.
This 223 thread has taken the exact same route as the dozens of predecessors before it, right down to the BS reason for military adoption. Perhaps 223's, or "is this cartridge adequate?" threads should have their own topic, or be stickied because they happen almost weekly.
mildcustom2
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
I think using the reason that you must use a larger calibre round for deer is an excuse for unethical poorly placed shots from unskilled marksmen. A well placed round from a .223 in a 64gr Winchester Super-X will drop a deer without a doubt. Those of you who cant make a well placed kill shot and get the job done with one shot need to spend more time at the range perfecting ur skills and more logic when deciding if you should shoot or not shoot. I guess some guys get a little too excited when they see that buck cross thier sights and make poor decisions.
Having said this the idea of taking a black rifle or AR type rifle into the field for hunting seems a bit ridiculous to me and is best left at the range but to each is own, I own an AR myself and have no desire to hunt with it. Dont ever let anyone tell you what you should do. Ask for advice and develope your own opinion from both the positive and the negative.
As for hunting next year I personally intend to take my REM 700 SPS heavy barrel in .223 out next year deer hunting. I know that I can place a round into the head of a deer from 100yds+ with no problem at all. I can do this because my gun is meant for precission shots and I know my skills are up to the task and I practice, practice and practice. My advice would be you go out to the range and practice shooting the same cartridge you intend to hunt with. Once you are confident you can make the shot, go for it and welcome the challenge.
Good Luck Hunting
Having said this the idea of taking a black rifle or AR type rifle into the field for hunting seems a bit ridiculous to me and is best left at the range but to each is own, I own an AR myself and have no desire to hunt with it. Dont ever let anyone tell you what you should do. Ask for advice and develope your own opinion from both the positive and the negative.
As for hunting next year I personally intend to take my REM 700 SPS heavy barrel in .223 out next year deer hunting. I know that I can place a round into the head of a deer from 100yds+ with no problem at all. I can do this because my gun is meant for precission shots and I know my skills are up to the task and I practice, practice and practice. My advice would be you go out to the range and practice shooting the same cartridge you intend to hunt with. Once you are confident you can make the shot, go for it and welcome the challenge.
Good Luck Hunting
