Handgun wound ballistics

Ganderite said:
Re: Moose and 338WinMag. It was on the same trail as me, coming towards me. When I fired it was at least 90% directly at me. I assume there was a bit of angle and this caused the bullet to be able to deflect.

In the real world we can't do much more than hit where we aimed with a good bullet. That will usually do the job. It is the exceptions I tend to remember.

BTW, if a bear is tritting towards you, there is a very shallow angle on the forhead, above the eyes. I would exect a bullet to glance off. the neck or open mouth would be a better target.

As for 9mm, in practice they don't seem to do much in big animals. I have seen them stuck in the fat, just under the hide.
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There is a possibility that if your expanded bullet formed a wing on just one side of the bullet, and if the outside edge of that wing hit a hard bone, the bullet could be pushed off course because the force acting against it is so far from the bullets center of gravity.

The shallow angle on the bear's head has no effect on the passage of a bullet that is directed to intesect with the center of the head. Besides, should the encounter happen on flat ground, the angle is for all practical purposes nullified when you consider the angle of departure of the bullet from a standing shooter firing from a range that makes such a shot a practical choice. For the shot to work it must strike behind the eyes and ahead of the ears and hit the skull within the width of the snout. Thats a pretty precise shot when one is under stress and the target is moving quickly towards you. It is also the real reason for the head shot to so often result in a wounded bear, not becuase of the angle of the skull. When a bear's mouth is open his head is often positioned snout down, and that would be a good opportunity to put a bullet in the center of the top of his head. If you drop to one knee, and the bear is holding his head high, the bullet will pass through his neck and into his chest, and if your shot is a good one you might even spine him.
 
Boomer said:
Have you never shot a big game animal? How big was the wound volume compared to the bullet diameter? What caused this to happen? When a ballistic missle (ICBM, airplane, or a bullet) travels at super-sonic speed a shock wave is created around that projectile whether it travels through the air or through fluid.

If you can't find any supporting information its not becasue its not there. Check out www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm. The articles concerning the penetration of WFN bullet on Beartooth Bullets is quite similar. When you get done those order yourself a copy of the A-Square loading manual and read the chapters on terminal ballistics.
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The wound size is bigger than the bullet diameter/expanded diameter and the size of secondary fragmentation or spalling from bones if the bullet is large, fast and heavy beyond a certain point, as it's pushing matter aside as it passes. The matter being stretched outward from that center is stretched to destruction only to a certain extent indeed. The bullet does create it's cavity, and this happens for ANY bullet (but the effect is actually damaging for only certain bullets and calibers, trying to see if a pistol caliber damages this way is useless, it doesn't) and it's not "supercavitation" (I don't know why you mentioned that effect). It's destructive temporary cavitation - Potahto, potayto.

I know now why most aggression is a result of poor communication.
 
Boomer said:
There is a possibility that if your expanded bullet formed a wing on just one side of the bullet, and if the outside edge of that wing hit a hard bone, the bullet could be pushed off course because the force acting against it is so far from the bullets center of gravity.

The shallow angle on the bear's head has no effect on the passage of a bullet that is directed to intesect with the center of the head. Besides, should the encounter happen on flat ground, the angle is for all practical purposes nullified when you consider the angle of departure of the bullet from a standing shooter firing from a range that makes such a shot a practical choice. For the shot to work it must strike behind the eyes and ahead of the ears and hit the skull within the width of the snout. Thats a pretty precise shot when one is under stress and the target is moving quickly towards you. It is also the real reason for the head shot to so often result in a wounded bear, not becuase of the angle of the skull. When a bear's mouth is open his head is often positioned snout down, and that would be a good opportunity to put a bullet in the center of the top of his head. If you drop to one knee, and the bear is holding his head high, the bullet will pass through his neck and into his chest, and if your shot is a good one you might even spine him.
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I just keep getting stories about #### like bears taking headshots and living. A buddy of mine said he skinned a polar bear with a deerslug embedded half way in it's skull, with a part of the skull having partially healed over. He said it had hit the skull at an angle, and the slug had gone through more bone since it was at an angle, effectively stopping it.
 
Meph said:
I just keep getting stories about s**t like bears taking headshots and living. A buddy of mine said he skinned a polar bear with a deerslug embedded half way in it's skull, with a part of the skull having partially healed over. He said it had hit the skull at an angle, and the slug had gone through more bone since it was at an angle, effectively stopping it.
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You read stories about folks who have been shot in the head and weren't aware of it. One picture/article I read showed a man who had been shot in the back of the head with a .22LR. The bullet was in the middle of his brain. Things like this happen but I wouldn't bet on it happening often. So too your friend and his Polar Bear incident.

Take Care

Bob
 
Meph said:
The wound size is bigger than the bullet diameter/expanded diameter and the size of secondary fragmentation or spalling from bones if the bullet is large, fast and heavy beyond a certain point, as it's pushing matter aside as it passes. The matter being stretched outward from that center is stretched to destruction only to a certain extent indeed. The bullet does create it's cavity, and this happens for ANY bullet (but the effect is actually damaging for only certain bullets and calibers, trying to see if a pistol caliber damages this way is useless, it doesn't) and it's not "supercavitation" (I don't know why you mentioned that effect). It's destructive temporary cavitation - Potahto, potayto.

I know now why most aggression is a result of poor communication.
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If the pistol bullet in question is supersonic, then supercavitation occurs to a greater or lesser extent based on the profile of the bullet. The reason I brought it up was because the discussion had moved to include rifle bullets bouncing off bears heads, which does not happen. I load a 325 gr WFN bullet to 1200 fps in my .44 belt gun for bear work. When testing this bullet against other bullet shapes of similar weight and velocity guess what, the WFN penetrated deeper and created a wound of greater volume. The difference was remarkable, and the only explanation for that difference is supercavitation. Thus the bullet remains super-sonic longer, and once it becomes transonic, then sub-sonic the surrounding soft tissue is effected by the direct contact with the bullet as it pushes through.
 
Meph said:
I just keep getting stories about s**t like bears taking headshots and living. A buddy of mine said he skinned a polar bear with a deerslug embedded half way in it's skull, with a part of the skull having partially healed over. He said it had hit the skull at an angle, and the slug had gone through more bone since it was at an angle, effectively stopping it.
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As I said, a head shot on an approaching bear is a difficult one because the bear's head is massive, and the kill zone is small and the stress on the shooter is high. When you say deer slug I assume you are referring to a shotgun slug and not a .30/30 bullet. Most foster style slugs leave a lot to be desired in the penetration department, that is why I carry Brennekes and Challengers. When I am on foot I prefer to carry a rifle or heavy handgun, or both, while I mostly carry a shotgun close to town or when just riding in the truck. Where did this happen by the way? If it was here I'd like to talk to the fellows who were involved.
 
A foster slug though has allot more penetration than a 9mm 45 or .40 I could see all 3 of those skipping off the skull of a bear. The .45 .230 grain round nose wouldn't even make it through a cow leg bone at the range... of coarse
 
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