7.62 pressure vs. 308Win pressure

Ganderite

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Several times I have posted here to explain that 7.62X51 and 308Win develop similar pressures. The apparent lower pressure limit of 7.62NATO is due to the pressure being based on the CUP sytem, whereas the published numbers for 308 are in PSI. Same pressures, different measuring systems

I just found a very good article about pressure measuring. I am so old that when I worked in the ammo R&D lab of CIL, the only equipment we had was the lead and copper crusher systems.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_cuppsireloaddata_200905/
 
Yup.:)
About couple of years ago i had a boatload of PMC .308 147fmj and contacted PMC because i wanted to know if the CP was near NATO standard as i wanted to use it in an old FR8. I still had their reply kicking around.

Dear Mr. ****
Thanks for using PMC.
With regard to the chamber pressure of PMC 308B, we applies the same standard as the military use 7.62x51mm NATO M80 Ball ammunition.
In accordance with the Mil. spec, the chamber pressure is 50,000psi. Max. but SAAMI standard is 52,000psi. Max. Since we applies Mil. Spec, the C/P of PMC 308B is not in excess of 50,000psi.
Thanks.
Best regards,
*** **** ***
Manager
PMC / Poongsan

Ended up putting about 350 through it with no problems.
 
Thanks J996

That letter from PMC illustrates one of the problems we have that causes confusion. They said 50,000 and 52,200 PSI but what they really meant was CUP.

I don't have my books handy, but the two specs are about 58,000 psi vs 60,000 psi.

In practice, most commercial ammo is not loaded to the max, although i have found some lots of both military and commercial that were at max pressure.
 
If you look on the SAAMI web page http://www.saami.org They show the difference in the two in both CUP and PSI (58 000 vs 60 000 for PSI as Ganderite posted). Interestingly though when you look at their cartridge compatibility page they do not differentiate the two (for .223 they do not recommend 5.56mm probably due to the slight difference in case dimensions, but that is a guess on my part as they don't say for certain).

One reloading book I have states that cartridge mfr's load to the lower 7.62 standard due to the prevalence of surplus 7.62 firearms that .308 is fired from. That runs counter to the SAAMI chart (2006) on the site though. Military sizing, I.E. 7.62 are not specifically listed except in the non-compatible side of the chart except for the old inch measurements like .303 Brit.

FWIW, I fired crap loads of .308 from all of my FN's when I could still do that and so have many others. Same with my Nork-14 though I kept the bullet weight to 150 grains even though it should be able to go to at least 168 gr with no problems.

In the end there is a lot of data out there and a lot of experience here. Guys like Hungry, Lazarus and Mysticplayer (plus some others, too many to list) here on the board are an excellent source of info and will not steer you wrong.
 
The 223 v 5.56 issue is not pressure. It is a chamber throat issue.

The original SAAMI hamber would shoot the 55 gr and 62 gr NATO ammo just fine, but there are other types of NATO 5.56 the throat would not handle - such as the tracer.

So the manufacturers (lawyers) said "no 5.56".

I gave a chamber drawing to one manufacturer for the "Wylde" chamber - which had a longer throat. This chamber shot NATO very well (we used it in target rifles shooting the SS109) and later proved to be very good with the 69 and 80gr match bullets.

The tracer round is very long. A standard SAAMI throat is quite short, so the bullet would hit the rifling while the unsupported bullet base is still in the case. It might open up, like a rivet, and spike pressures off the chart.

So far as I know, a SAAMI chamber is ok with NATO ball ammo.
 
.223 and 5.56, the pressures are also different. 5.56 is higher pressure. FYI.

ETA: .223 pressure is 55ksi and 5.56 is 62.3ksi.
 
Very good information regarding the internal cartridge differences and external chamber differences between military NATO spec and their civilian equivalents.

One other factor not mentioned so far in this thread, is that most military ammunition [ 7.62 NATO & 5.56 NATO ] is designed specifically to reliably activate gas operated firearms. This mean that, as well as chamber pressure at the instant of firing, residual pressure at the port a few microseconds later, is also a major consideration. The military selects the proper powder burning rates, and/or adds "retardant" to the powder, to ensure there is sufficient residual pressure at the gas port, for reliable operation of gas operated firearms.

Commercial .308 and .223 ammunition, especially loads with bullet weights grossly different from standard NATO loads, may or may not match these residual port pressures , EVEN THOUGH THE CHAMBER PRESSURES at the instant of firing ARE THE SAME OR CLOSE.

The larger caliber 7.62 /.308 Win firearms seem to have a bit wider range of acceptable powders/pressure curve than the smaller 5.56 / .223 firearms. In my testing, I found that the old AR 10 [ non adjustable gas regulator models ] and the M14 would function reliably with loads as light as the Remington "Accelerators", which used a .223 bullet in a .30 cal sabot to basically duplicate .22-250 ballistics. Amazingly, irregardless of conventional wisdom on twist rates and light bullets, some military spec rifles shot these ultralight loads into very tight groups. Unfortunately these very tight groups would usually be way off the zero for other loads.

I also had success in .308 bored rifles with the cheap BULK .311" Lapua 123 gr FMJ bullets, intended for reloading 7.62X39 Russian. These bullets were loaded into 7.62 NATO CASES to duplicate 7.62X39 ballistics [ at about 2450 FPS ] making for a very light recoiling load for "practical rifle" or three gun games. They were accurate enough for 200 yd matches, and would push a bowling pin 3' straight back.

As for heavy loads, due to the design of the gas system and rotating bolt, the AR 10 will basically handle any heavy bullet you can stuff into a .308 case that still fits in the magazine. The M14, due to the long relatively weak op rod, and the rest of the design parameters, is restricted to 168 /175 gr loads. If you want to feed your M14 a steady diet of HOT loads or HEAVY loads, there are ways to modify the M14 gas system to match these loads, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH, and setting up an M14 to shoot heavy loads, probably means you have to give up some reliability with the lighter loads.

With the M14, it is not necessarily the chamber pressure that breaks things, but the excess residual port pressure, due to ULTRA slow powders or heavy bullets, that causes the problems.

The .308/7.62 platform offers amazing versatility, with commercial or military loads suitable for almost any chore, especially if used properly, within the original design specifications. The .308 Win/7.62 NATO platform can also be made even more versatile by hand loading light or hand loading heavy. However, if you want a gas operated firearm to work properly with your hand loads, you have to be aware of the difference between Chamber pressure and residual port pressure.

of course,
as with all advice you get for free on the internet,
it may be worth much less than you paid for it,
and,
YPMMV.
LAZ 1
 
Hah and here I was thinking it was a forum about the 7.62X54R a REAL man's cartridge. :p Just kidding. Besides it's pressures and ballistics are much closer to the 30-06.
 
I don't know why SAAMI chose a lower pressure for the 223, compared to the 5.56 loaded with the same bullet. There must have been some marginal rifle around they were worried about. All the rifles I have in 223 will run 60K psi with no problem.

The issue of port pressure is also interesting. Those with Garands and M14s are safe shooting milsurp, but for handloads and commercial, port pressure is an issue. It is not a bullet weight issue, as such, put a powder speed issue. The slower powders under heavy bullets tend to give higher port pressures.

I have had occassion to make specialty ammo for the military. Their specifications are quite different than for a commercial round. They have their own specs for waterproofing, for smoke signature, for muzzle flash, for port pressure and for neck tension.

One way to explain is this. Military ammo is made to suit the rifle. Commercial rifles are made to suit the ammo. Sort of a chicken and egg deal.
 
I always did in my M1A's and they had 1.631 chambers. Just use your chamber brush for proper cleaning and keep the firing pin channel clean. Also miitary ammo uses hard primers, you should not have any problems. If you would rather not try it use American Eagle 150gr FMJ's.
New M1A's come with a card that tells you what it is headspaced to. They usually try for 1.631-1.632 when they build them. If its 1.632 it will certainly fire 7.62 Nato.
 
I always did in my M1A's and they had 1.631 chambers. Just use your chamber brush for proper cleaning and keep the firing pin channel clean. Also miitary ammo uses hard primers, you should not have any problems. If you would rather not try it use American Eagle 150gr FMJ's.
New M1A's come with a card that tells you what it is headspaced to. They usually try for 1.631-1.632 when they build them. If its 1.632 it will certainly fire 7.62 Nato.

Thanks for the info.

When I bought the rifle a few months ago I took a case (200 rounds) of Federal 150gr soft point and a few boxes of Federal Premium 168gr Matchiking BTHP (which I haven't fired yet). The headspace is 1.6315.
 
No problem at all if it comes in at 1.6315, there should not be insufficient headspace to worry about use of Nato. My rifles at 1.631 were a tad tighter than your rifle..

Here's some more info for you about 7.62mm cartridge dimensions. In this article 1.6315 is listed as average 7.62mm cartridge headspace.

***I have removed the part of this article that deals with excess headspace as it will only brew controversy and lead us off topic. This is about the Nato cartridge fitting into a SAAMI spec chamber***

Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers.
I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!

7.62x51mm NATO minimum cartridge headspace 1.630
7.62x51mm NATO maximum cartridge headspace 1.633
7.62x51mm NATO average cartridge headspace 1.6315

.308 Winchester minimum cartridge headspace 1.627
.308 Winchester maximum cartridge headspace 1.633
.308 Winchester average cartridge headspace 1.630

I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!
 
I didn't notice but right there on the M1A website lists for caliber: 7.62x51 NATO (.308 WIN)
M1A specs

And here they shoot it with Israeli military surplus 7.62 NATO ammunition (IVI-70 148-gr. FMJ). The table at the bottom:
Table and specs for NATO

Thanks. I suppose one has to watch just what milsurp 7.62 one buys?
 
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