Sako and Tikka SS guns had a barrel recall a few years ago. The Savage muzzy most likely had a bad case of bullet not seated to the powder and kazaam. Then again, if the gent that had the mishap is not going to talk about it then we will really never know and a gun company gets a bad rap because someon did not follow the owner's manual or was in too much of a hurry.
Savage BP Rifle Failure
- Thread starter BimmerBob
- Start date
It's interesting to me that people are assuming the shooter did something other than follow the manufacturers instructions. It is my understanding that he was following the manufacturers instruction and has been shooting the rifle for some time. It is also my understanding that he is a careful shooter and not prone to taking chances, as a friend of his has indicated in an earlier post.
I am sure the manufacturers lawyers will be able to ensure the gun company is represented adequately in any discussions and I am at a loss as to why individuals seem to want to pin the blame on the injured party.
I posted this as information for people that may have one of these rifles and I understand through other reading that this is not the first failure. I do not qualify myself in any way to answer the question why it has failed, just that it has and unfortunately there has been a serious injury. If I owned one of these I would want to be aware of this fact.
All the best, Bob
Dude....I'm at a loss as to why we should all assume that Savage builds crap vs assuming that some idiot double/triple charged or short seated a bullet.
I have seen the pictures and it looks like operator error to me.
Plus I'd like to see proof that the injury in those photo's is remotely related to the split barrel in that Savage.
Course this is the internet and all things are possible so what rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader would you like to see "blowd up" tomorrow?
Send money and I'll post pic's!
Here we go - the monthly "Savage Muzzleloaders are unsafe" thread.
Here's the most recent: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400040Since the cases are "recorded", let's see the complete list and the confirmed causes. If you can't produce that, this is just fear mongering.
Here we go - the monthly "Savage Muzzleloaders are unsafe" thread.
Since the cases are "recorded", let's see the complete list and the confirmed causes. If you can't produce that, this is just fear mongering.
Andy,
If you go back to my original post you will note that I was forwarding a quote from another person. I guess I should have been more clear as "I" was not intending to put any "spin" on the conclusions to be drawn, just passing along information from a personal friend that this had happened with pictures to go along with the note.
Cheers, Bob
I understand - you're the messenger for the messenger. I know you're passing this along with the best of intentions, I've just seen far too much hearsay and half-truths become "Gun Culture Dogma" to resist comment. I have a Savage 10ML and have read far and wide on the supposed flaws it possesses and the conspiracy theories that Savage is hiding them from innocent gun owners. Not a single case has been able to point to anything but operator error. Even "careful" shooters make mistakes.
Just to be clear, I am a messenger and not "for" or "against" anything except the sharing of information.
Fair enough for me, you are making an informed decision for yourself.
Yes, every human is suceptable to mistakes. Operator error, however is drawing a conclusion that is going to be difficult, without forensic deconstruction, to determine with certainty either way. I guess human nature, being what it is, just needs to draw whatever conclusions required to justify our decisions. My thoughts are that these cases are surely going to go through the courts and as lawyers are like to do in these sorts of things, the "truth" will be buried in all sorts of "non disclosure" documents so that money can exchange hands without anyone being "responsible".
It seems to me that this is the result of either 1)User error or 2)A defect that only appears in a small number of Savage 10MLII's as the problem does not appear to be widespread or common. Would they not have sold 10's to 100's of thousands of these rifles that should have fired in the millions of discharges safely? How about the guys in the states that have been pushing the limits of these rifles, would they not be reporting catastrophic failures if the margin of safety was narrow?
No idea on that, I have just become interested
I have seen, on another site (linked by someone earlier in this thread) that one of the original testers and advocates of the Savage 10 MLII's that did have a catastrophic failure has had his contract with Savage cancelled. Their lawyers posted/supplied a long list of "facts" with their information on the cancelled contract. It seemed to me they were distancing themselves from him after they had had a falling out of some sort and were attempting to discredit him in the eyes of the ML crowd. He on the other hand was no longer supportive of their product and was calling for specific changes to remedy his conclusion that the product was faulty. Action-Reaction, a never ending saga of he said - she said...
I am not sure how many times the rifles in circulation have been fired, or even how many there may be, but if my direct experience with my firearms (I don't own a Savage though) is taken as a norm, it is doubtful that there have been millions of discharges of these units. I have had a ML for almost 3 years and have yet to fire it 100 times and I think I probably shoot more than most.
That conclusion is not possible given the information available. It is only one possiblity.
It is not always obvious what the failure cause is and even with detailed metallurgical forensic analysis there can be mulitple failure paths.
To provide a bit of background on my experience (just so you won't think I am talking out of my hat, which you might think anyway). I have been involved in Reliablity Centered Maintenance in Electrical Distribution Systems for some years now and I know how hard it is for the consumer utilities to make the decision to discontinue use of products that have been in use for years even though analysis has proven beyond reasonable doubt the product is a flawed concept.
The following are humanistic observations over the years.
It has been my experience in multi-million dollar retrofit programs that even users of products that put the users in the direct line of fire, with deathly results, tend to want to dismiss strong analytical evidence and engineering determinations in an effort to continue product use. I really have struggled with the nature of people wantin to cling to their beleifs in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
People seem willing to conclude others are nothing but bozos living mistake filled lives while at the same time willing to believe that they can never do the same. Their solution is for everyone to just do it the way they do to avoid the risks.
In my view, the jury is still out on this particular issue and I am interested in following it through the process.
Sincerely, Bob
Here's some hearsay I copied from another site:
As far as Toby Bridges and the one and only blown 10ML-II is concered, there is so much more to that story than has been told. If I had just stumbled across Toby's webste and saw those pictures I would probably be just as shocked as anyone. Some of the things, the people here need to know about that blown 10ML-II are:
Toby Bridge's has for 1.5 years and maybe longer, prior to the that 10ML-II letting go, had been a very vocal advocate of very high pressure/velocity loads, to include duplex loads (the mixing of 2 different kind of powders in the same load), reverse duplex loads, and even triplex loads (the mixing of 3 different kind of powders in the same load). Not to mention, all kinds of stuff, stuffed under the sabot to prevent the sabot from blowing, like 28ga shotgun wad bases, wonder wads, MMP ballistics bridges, and combinations of all of them. Bottom line is Toby Bridges abused that rifle far beyond what any normal 10ML-II will ever see.
Savage Arms has done extensive testing and evaluation on the blown 10ML-II and has undeniable proof that the cause of the failure, was a bore obstruction. The rupture of the barrel started 5" in front of the breech plug and went reward toward the breech. Not behind the breech plug and traveling forward, like Toby states. There is a debate as too whether the rifle was intentually blown or not. The majority of those who know the story behind Toby and the blown 10ML-II, are of the opinion that Toby blew that rifle on purpose. It could be that, that particular 10ML-II was a victim of Toby's ego, greed, or a combination of both. It would seem that it is a true miracle that Toby was not even scratched, nicked, or even bruised when that rifle let go. That may be because, in my opnion, he was probably not within 20 feet or more, of it. He now talks about "how shaken up he was" and how he "had to pull over on the side of the road" several times on the way home. If this was true, why was he laughing about it when he called Henry Ball that very same day, the 10ML-II was blown. He actually thought that it was funny.
In late August 2004, Toby Bridges employment by Savage Arms was terminated, possibly over the impression that the rifle intentionally blown, insubordination, and possible fraud (false billing). Toby's contractual agreement with Henry Ball was also terminated, for breech of contract. After these terminations, Toby demanded $250,000 from Savage and $50,000 from Henry Ball, or he would plaster those photos and "his story" all over the internet, via his website, e-mails, and in written publications. Well, neither Savage Arms nor Henry Ball gave into Toby's attempted pethetic blackmail and extortion demands. But, Toby kept his word and on 28 August 2004, he indeed plastered "his story" and photos all over the internet and e-mails. Now Toby is facing multiple lawsuits, from Henry Ball, and my be facing more from Savage Arms.
I have as many rounds thru smokeless powder muzzleloaders as Toby does, probably more. I have had absolutely no safety issues what so ever, in over 15 years of shooting smokeless powder muzzleloaders and 5+ years of shooting the Savage 10ML-II. Toby Bridges has the honor of being the only person to ever have a 10ML-II let go in any manner. Toby did something even Savage could not do, that is to totally blow a 10ML-II. Savage tried and tried, and finally gave up trying to blow one. They were able to bulged the barrel on a few, but never have they been able to blow. Neither has anyone else. There have been 3 or 4 people that have bugled their barrels, by double charging and leaving the ramrods in the bore, but their 10ML-II's never began to let go.
Just remember these facts, Toby Bridge's is not a gunsmith, machinist, engineer, or ballistician. He has absolutely zero, none, and nodda qualifications at all, for claiming that the Savage breech plug has so called short comings. All he has is a belly full of sour grapes and is the epitome of the disgruntled employee. In fact the breech plug in that 10ML-II never failed, and that very same breech plug is still in use at Savage Arms today in a test 10ML-II.
Bottom line is, the Savage 10ML-II is the strongest, safest, and most user friendly muzzleloader ever introduced. Just because it can safely be shot using smokeless powder, doesn't mean the it absolutely has to be shot strictly using smokeless powder. It can be shot with BP, Pyrodex, T-7, or any other johnny come lately so-called BP substitute. If the fact, that it can be shot safely with smokeless powder upsets some of the more bassackwards thinking people, then I guess you will just have to get over it, or die with one. The Savage 10ML-II is here to stay, whether you like it or not, and the future of the muzzleoading sport is, smokeless powder.
Check these great sites out for accurate and straight information, not ignorant opinions, uninformed rumors, and absurd ramblings, about the Savage 10ML-II.
http://=http://wolfhound.proboards27...i?board=savage
http://=http://dougva.proboards34.co...i?board=Savage
=http://members.aol.com/randymagic/ballltd.htm
As far as Toby Bridges and the one and only blown 10ML-II is concered, there is so much more to that story than has been told. If I had just stumbled across Toby's webste and saw those pictures I would probably be just as shocked as anyone. Some of the things, the people here need to know about that blown 10ML-II are:
Toby Bridge's has for 1.5 years and maybe longer, prior to the that 10ML-II letting go, had been a very vocal advocate of very high pressure/velocity loads, to include duplex loads (the mixing of 2 different kind of powders in the same load), reverse duplex loads, and even triplex loads (the mixing of 3 different kind of powders in the same load). Not to mention, all kinds of stuff, stuffed under the sabot to prevent the sabot from blowing, like 28ga shotgun wad bases, wonder wads, MMP ballistics bridges, and combinations of all of them. Bottom line is Toby Bridges abused that rifle far beyond what any normal 10ML-II will ever see.
Savage Arms has done extensive testing and evaluation on the blown 10ML-II and has undeniable proof that the cause of the failure, was a bore obstruction. The rupture of the barrel started 5" in front of the breech plug and went reward toward the breech. Not behind the breech plug and traveling forward, like Toby states. There is a debate as too whether the rifle was intentually blown or not. The majority of those who know the story behind Toby and the blown 10ML-II, are of the opinion that Toby blew that rifle on purpose. It could be that, that particular 10ML-II was a victim of Toby's ego, greed, or a combination of both. It would seem that it is a true miracle that Toby was not even scratched, nicked, or even bruised when that rifle let go. That may be because, in my opnion, he was probably not within 20 feet or more, of it. He now talks about "how shaken up he was" and how he "had to pull over on the side of the road" several times on the way home. If this was true, why was he laughing about it when he called Henry Ball that very same day, the 10ML-II was blown. He actually thought that it was funny.
In late August 2004, Toby Bridges employment by Savage Arms was terminated, possibly over the impression that the rifle intentionally blown, insubordination, and possible fraud (false billing). Toby's contractual agreement with Henry Ball was also terminated, for breech of contract. After these terminations, Toby demanded $250,000 from Savage and $50,000 from Henry Ball, or he would plaster those photos and "his story" all over the internet, via his website, e-mails, and in written publications. Well, neither Savage Arms nor Henry Ball gave into Toby's attempted pethetic blackmail and extortion demands. But, Toby kept his word and on 28 August 2004, he indeed plastered "his story" and photos all over the internet and e-mails. Now Toby is facing multiple lawsuits, from Henry Ball, and my be facing more from Savage Arms.
I have as many rounds thru smokeless powder muzzleloaders as Toby does, probably more. I have had absolutely no safety issues what so ever, in over 15 years of shooting smokeless powder muzzleloaders and 5+ years of shooting the Savage 10ML-II. Toby Bridges has the honor of being the only person to ever have a 10ML-II let go in any manner. Toby did something even Savage could not do, that is to totally blow a 10ML-II. Savage tried and tried, and finally gave up trying to blow one. They were able to bulged the barrel on a few, but never have they been able to blow. Neither has anyone else. There have been 3 or 4 people that have bugled their barrels, by double charging and leaving the ramrods in the bore, but their 10ML-II's never began to let go.
Just remember these facts, Toby Bridge's is not a gunsmith, machinist, engineer, or ballistician. He has absolutely zero, none, and nodda qualifications at all, for claiming that the Savage breech plug has so called short comings. All he has is a belly full of sour grapes and is the epitome of the disgruntled employee. In fact the breech plug in that 10ML-II never failed, and that very same breech plug is still in use at Savage Arms today in a test 10ML-II.
Bottom line is, the Savage 10ML-II is the strongest, safest, and most user friendly muzzleloader ever introduced. Just because it can safely be shot using smokeless powder, doesn't mean the it absolutely has to be shot strictly using smokeless powder. It can be shot with BP, Pyrodex, T-7, or any other johnny come lately so-called BP substitute. If the fact, that it can be shot safely with smokeless powder upsets some of the more bassackwards thinking people, then I guess you will just have to get over it, or die with one. The Savage 10ML-II is here to stay, whether you like it or not, and the future of the muzzleoading sport is, smokeless powder.
Check these great sites out for accurate and straight information, not ignorant opinions, uninformed rumors, and absurd ramblings, about the Savage 10ML-II.
http://=http://wolfhound.proboards27...i?board=savage
http://=http://dougva.proboards34.co...i?board=Savage
=http://members.aol.com/randymagic/ballltd.htm
Mike Oxbig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Scarborough Ontario
Sweet Jebus! I cold have gone without seeing those mangled hand pics!
What a mess!
What a mess!
tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
I've killed a nice buck and a 'yote in the last 2 days with my MLII and it hasn't blown up... Seriously, I have yet to see a problem with a Savage muzzleloader that wasn't caused by operator error....
here's the proof
The shooter lost a finger or two and the shooter next to him was hit by shrapnells
I don't doubt the failure, but that pic is directly from Toby Bridges Modern Muzzleloader site when his MLII "failed" (or was forced to fai)...don't know what to believe anymore.
Here's the other one:
