New Magpul AFG

[misanthropist]

I would argue that if you are fighting against an opponent of equal strength, then you need absolutely every advantage you can get...no doubt it is harder to shoot with good technique while under serious pressure. I believe that is why they train from time to time?

Costa was apparently the treasurer of the USCG weekend paintball beer league but I believe that is his only experience prior to Magpul...I think I heard that from rivet?

 

[MKb42]

I would argue that if you are fighting against an opponent of equal strength, then you need absolutely every advantage you can get...no doubt it is harder to shoot with good technique while under serious pressure. I believe that is why they train from time to time?

Costa was apparently the treasurer of the USCG weekend paintball beer league but I believe that is his only experience prior to Magpul...I think I heard that from rivet?

when mortar round turns you into a bloody mucous or you come against a hmg nest that pierces brick walls tactical backflips and electronic sites will not help you. hard liquor to numb the pain and suppress fear is what you need and lotsa luck and big guns 25mm and up.

 

[Miraclejoe]

when mortar round turns you into a bloody mucous or you come against a hmg nest that pierces brick walls tactical backflips and electronic sites will not help you. hard liquor to numb the pain and suppress fear is what you need and lotsa luck and big guns 25mm and up.

You are beginning to arise my ire.

Are you a past or present serving member?

 

[TDC]

Easy on the Costa/Haley Bashing. Haley is in a well known video from Iraq engaging threats and did serve in the USMC. I don't necessarily agree with everything Magpul teaches(in fact there is very little I agree with, stay tuned for an in depth analysis) but the Man has served and seen action. Costa, well, all I see is his history from the USCG and his DHS position which from the information available is no walk in the park. Credentials aside, I'm sure either Costa or Haley could out shoot 99% of those on CGN.

TDC

 

[Starscream]

when mortar round turns you into a bloody mucous or you come against a hmg nest that pierces brick walls tactical backflips and electronic sites will not help you. hard liquor to numb the pain and suppress fear is what you need and lotsa luck and big guns 25mm and up.

.....The #### you on?

 

[acrashb]

.....The f**k you on?

Every minute MKb42 stays in his room, he gets weaker.

 

[USP]

Every minute he stays in his room, he gets weaker.

never get off the boat.

 

[misanthropist]

Easy on the Costa/Haley Bashing. Haley is in a well known video from Iraq engaging threats and did serve in the USMC. I don't necessarily agree with everything Magpul teaches(in fact there is very little I agree with, stay tuned for an in depth analysis) but the Man has served and seen action. Costa, well, all I see is his history from the USCG and his DHS position which from the information available is no walk in the park. Credentials aside, I'm sure either Costa or Haley could out shoot 99% of those on CGN.

TDC

I'm joking...those guys are obviously serious pros and I am in fact mocking people who don't take their advice seriously. I am sure that like everyone else some of what they teach will work for you and some won't, but I am sure they spend more time working on developing new techniques and assessing the effectiveness of a given protocol than 99.99% of CGNers. I don't feel I know enough to argue against anything they say, whether I adopt it or not.



In any case, not only will expert technique fail to protect a soldier against 25mm guns, neither will a helmet or body armour or a rifle or a radio or a pair of boots...but I assume we aren't then concluding that there is no need to equip soldiers with helmets, armour, rifles, radios, or boots.

 

[Suputin]

If you're set in your ways you are set up to fail.

I call BS. We're all built the same. Unless you have a physical handicap due to accident/injury or some other event, we all bend the same way in the same places. An effective hold or stance doesn't have to be comfortable which is why many fail to understand or adopt a superior form.

I'm gonna disagree here.

I come from motorcycle racing and as you noted, all people are essentially the same and all motorcycles are configured essentially the same yet we see a miriad of different styles. What works for one guy will not necessarily work for another guy. We have a saying in racing circles, "If it works for you and you can cut fast laptimes then it isn't wrong".

I was shooting competitively decades before the vertical hand grip came along. I cant stand those stupid grips, they feel terrible to me and completely unnatural. Now I have a number of trophies on my wall that show the older ways work better for me.

Chasing the newest technology is fine but if it doesn't work for you then it is the wrong technology.

 

[TDC]

I'm gonna disagree here.

I come from motorcycle racing and as you noted, all people are essentially the same and all motorcycles are configured essentially the same yet we see a miriad of different styles. What works for one guy will not necessarily work for another guy. We have a saying in racing circles, "If it works for you and you can cut fast laptimes then it isn't wrong".

I was shooting competitively decades before the vertical hand grip came along. I cant stand those stupid grips, they feel terrible to me and completely unnatural. Now I have a number of trophies on my wall that show the older ways work better for me.

Chasing the newest technology is fine but if it doesn't work for you then it is the wrong technology.

I have no experience with motorcycle racing just guns. Sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow through. There is nothing complicated about making hits(we'll leave extended ranges out of it for now). Everything else only supplements one or more of the three requirements to make hits. An improved pistol grip(on a rifle) aids in proper finger placement which aids improves the trigger squeeze. Is it necessary? No, is it an improvement over the factory grip? Yes.

Getting back to your example. I'm confident that if I had the best bike for racing and you ran a moped you would wax my ass. You have the experience and skill to work with whatever you're given. I haven't a clue what skills/techniques are required to maximize the performance of any bike let alone the best bike. Again, the operator makes the rifle/mike perform not the other way around.

Vert grips are more of a hand stop than a place to hold the rifle. Seating the rifle with rearward pressure is easily achieved with a vert grip or hand stop but can be accomplished with old fashioned handguards.

TDC

 

[greentips]

Motorcycling is a bit different from shooting - shooting is more like golfing or swinging a baseball bat. The mechanics is pretty simple. Simply, the club is not swung certain ways because people before have figured out they did not work already,

There are right ways and wrong ways - but people who have not mastered the skill may not even know it is the wrong way. Simply put, some may not even know enough to know what they do not know.

Just because someone is feeling more comfortable with certain things right now - it does not mean it is necessary right or the most efficient. It just mean this is the only thing someone knows.

How many people remember learning certain sports - you feel comfortable with your way but your coach insists you on doing it the "right way"? After you get used to it, then you figured out the reason as you gain more experience. I remember lots of these instances when I was on varsity sports team.

 

[Winz]

Motorcycling is a bit different from shooting - shooting is more like golfing or swinging a baseball bat. The mechanics is pretty simple. Simply, the club is not swung certain ways because people before have figured out they did not work already,

There are right ways and wrong ways - but people who have not mastered the skill may not even know it is the wrong way. Simply put, some may not even know enough to know what they do not know.

Just because someone is feeling more comfortable with certain things right now - it does not mean it is necessary right or the most efficient. It just mean this is the only thing someone knows.

How many people remember learning certain sports - you feel comfortable with your way but your coach insists you on doing it the "right way"? After you get used to it, then you figured out the reason as you gain more experience. I remember lots of these instances when I was on varsity sports team.

Yes but we aren't talking about advocating completely wrong techniques.

However, within the scope of employing proper techniques, there will be variances depending on the individual.

There is a reason why we have adjustable stocks, picatinny rails for optics and vertical grips, so on and so on...

Some people like putting vertical grips all the way towards the front of their carbine, others mount it closer to the mag well, others use the mag well itself(hell they make a magwell grip...) and others just have handguards...

Personally I say use whatever works depending on how your rifle is configured(ie what you have mounted on it), your physical ability and make maximum efficient use of your physiology(core principles of shooting).

There is a reason there are different versions of the seating position for example in traditional shooting.

And finally, all this bickering and BS about which tacticool vertical grip or slanted wedge handguard piece goes out the door for the guy who has to carry a M203.

 

[TDC]

Yes but we aren't talking about advocating completely wrong techniques.

However, within the scope of employing proper techniques, there will be variances depending on the individual.

There is a reason why we have adjustable stocks, picatinny rails for optics and vertical grips, so on and so on...

Some people like putting vertical grips all the way towards the front of their carbine, others mount it closer to the mag well, others use the mag well itself(hell they make a magwell grip...) and others just have handguards...

Personally I say use whatever works depending on how your rifle is configured(ie what you have mounted on it), your physical ability and make maximum efficient use of your physiology(core principles of shooting).

There is a reason there are different versions of the seating position for example in traditional shooting.

And finally, all this bickering and BS about which tacticool vertical grip or slanted wedge handguard piece goes out the door for the guy who has to carry a M203.

Adjustable stocks are used to fit the rifle to the shooter with and without armor/clothing, nothing more. Pic rail is there for accessories, usually mission specific accessories. There is a reason behind the forward position of the support hand and/or vert grip. The further out you hold, the more stable the rifle and the faster it can be swung from target to target. A close grip and the mag well hold are inferior for dynamic, rapid shooting. Of course not everyone will be able to reach all the way to the FSB. The goal is to reach as far as possible without compromising the stability and mobility of the rifle. Just because someone offers an accessory doesn't mean its necessary or proven.

TDC

 

[Reaper]

Yes they would. Not everything Magpul produces or preaches is gold. For the uninformed, it makes no difference. Magpul is in vogue so all Magpul label gear must be the best and improve your performance.

The AVG has merit, but I see it as a personal taste thing over running a standard vert grip and applying the "high hold". Sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow through are far more important than how or what you use to support your rifle.

TDC

Actually you are forgetting GRIP, which is the foundation of all shooting. The new grip does have merit as it aids in positioning the support hand in the best possible position for supporting and guiding the rifle to the target. Will I rush out a buy one? No, but the idea has merit and is not to be dismissed.

 

[Jamie]

I will wait for gen 2 might be a tad smaller or just get a KAC handstop

 

[misanthropist]

My thoughts as well.

 

[Clobbersauras]

I wonder when Magpul will make a vert grip shaped like Cris Costa's c#ck?

Then all the Christ Costsa lovers on this board could stroke the guy all day long...





Hold on...it was just a joke.....

 

[MKb42]

i hear the newest technique is to hold the gun by flash hider. enhances pointability. downside: you lose a hand.

 

[Winz]

Adjustable stocks are used to fit the rifle to the shooter with and without armor/clothing, nothing more. Pic rail is there for accessories, usually mission specific accessories.

TDC

In addition to adjusting for clothing and armour, you are assuming that everyone can get a proper hold even without bulky clothing and armour. So everyone fits the solid AR stock just fine when not wearing layers and armour?

Flat top ARs with picatinny have numerous notches...partly so that optics require eye relief adjustment can be made. Otherwise you would just need one slot.

Point is, I may prefer to use my support hand far forward with my thumb indexing on the left side(I'm a righty) rather than the thumb wrapped around the vertical grip. That works for me. Others may shoot better using a completely different approach and so be it.

 

[TDC]

Actually you are forgetting GRIP, which is the foundation of all shooting. The new grip does have merit as it aids in positioning the support hand in the best possible position for supporting and guiding the rifle to the target. Will I rush out a buy one? No, but the idea has merit and is not to be dismissed.

Your grip contributes to trigger control(primary hand) which is the important factor. I agree the new grip shows some merit but it does nothing for the shooter who doesn't grasp the fundamentals. Accessories enhance ones abilities, they do not create that ability.

In addition to adjusting for clothing and armour, you are assuming that everyone can get a proper hold even without bulky clothing and armour. So everyone fits the solid AR stock just fine when not wearing layers and armour?

Flat top ARs with picatinny have numerous notches...partly so that optics require eye relief adjustment can be made. Otherwise you would just need one slot.

Point is, I may prefer to use my support hand far forward with my thumb indexing on the left side(I'm a righty) rather than the thumb wrapped around the vertical grip. That works for me. Others may shoot better using a completely different approach and so be it.

The fixed stocks are far too long for most people. The adjustable stock allows you to fit the rifle with or without clothing/armor. I should have made that clear.

The ability to move optics on the rail is a no brainer, its no different than sliding an optic in the rings to achieve proper eye relief.

As for support hand holds. Again, the science behind why a high hold is superior to others is there. Grabbing the vert grip with the "beer bottle" grip may work to an acceptable level but it is inferior to the high hold. Supporting the rifle along the boreline is ideal especially with optics on the rifle which make it top heavy. How that optimal grip is achieved is personal taste. With vert grips, hand stops, the new AFG or with nothing it doesn't really matter. Supporting the rifle along the boreline(or as close as possible) while keeping your support hand as far forward as is practical will yield excellent results. Obviously this wouldn't apply for those who shoot from the bench or off a bipod. The situation(or discipline) dictates the tactics.

TDC