But ...if we would have living in TDC's perfect world, we might face gunfire and combat every single day...
Trigun
Adding a Safety to an M&P?
- Thread starter 358 BLR
- Start date
But ...if we would have living in TDC's perfect world, we might face gunfire and combat every single day...
Trigun
I'm starting to get the hang of this place.
I like this place, you ask a simple question and it sparks a raging debate. It's like every word you type has the possibility of setting off a chain of events that are impossible to predict. Seems like the Internet version of the Chaos Theory. I must observe more.
I like this place, you ask a simple question and it sparks a raging debate. It's like every word you type has the possibility of setting off a chain of events that are impossible to predict. Seems like the Internet version of the Chaos Theory. I must observe more.
I like this place, you ask a simple question and it sparks a raging debate. It's like every word you type has the possibility of setting off a chain of events that are impossible to predict. Seems like the Internet version of the Chaos Theory. I must observe more.
Heee... That is how we made friends but I am not sure who want to made friend with me because of bloody old school.
Trigun
I like this place, you ask a simple question and it sparks a raging debate. It's like every word you type has the possibility of setting off a chain of events that are impossible to predict. Seems like the Internet version of the Chaos Theory. I must observe more.
Indeed... it's either awesome or sucks donkey ####.
Awesome when it's at least halfways polite and an actual debate/discussion of fact and differing opinions.
Sucks when it digresses to name-calling and personal insults.
Explain please "because of bloody old school"
Yes, I must agree. It's hard to see how anything here can be taken too personally when everything is so anonymous.
Ha..so you don't mind I am a old school and make friend with me right, Where you shoot? I am at POCO club.
By the way old school means...Don't really know how to explain...Trigun
Ha..so you don't mind I am a old school and make friend with me right, Where you shoot? I am at POCO club.
Trigun
Naturally, I shot in and around the Edmonton area and when I don't feel like travelling I just head out the back door - not too often mind you, I'm trying to be considerate of the neighbours. As for being "Old School" well I guess that's mostly a state of mind. I am "Old School" in some matters (mostly because I am old, relatively speaking) and not so "Old School" in other areas, or at least I think I am. I really think that "Old School" is a bit of a moving target from a definition standpoint.
tritium4ever
Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario
If we were living in TDC's "perfect world," all of our guns would magically transform into Glocks.
Here in lies the truth. Accidents happen, accidental discharges do not. They're negligent discharges because as you say, most "accidents" are due to the operator doing something wrong or unsafe to begin with.
I'll beak it down again for those who can't grasp the ignorance of a manual safety.
The manual safety is only effective when it is engaged. The safety is engaged prior to holstering and for a brief moment when drawing. From what many 1911 shooters(or others with manual safety equipped firearms) indicate, the safety is disengaged at some point during the draw. If this is indeed the case you are now holding a firearm that has no active safeties engaged. The only safety being exercised is the stuff between your ears and your finger being off the trigger and outside the trigger guard. Someone please explain how the manual safety is providing any additional level of protection? When the pistol is holstered it makes no difference, there is no access to the trigger and the grip safety is doing its job without your input. Negligent discharges only occur when there is human contact/involvement with the firearm. Oddly, there is human contact when you draw the pistol which is also when the safety is disengaged.
Manual safety or not all firearms require you to press the trigger for a round to discharge. trigger finger discipline is the last line of defense and the most important as it is the one level of safety/security that you have absolute control. I suspect most who shoot do so after deciding the target is appropriate, the background is suitable and their sights are aligned. Upon these conditions the trigger finger is put into action. All this without the use of a manual safety.
TDC
True, catching your trigger on something or rather something invading the trigger guard can cause a negligent discharge. The same can be said for a pistol(or any firearm) with a positive safety as it is disengaged upon drawing the firearm. More to the point, if you draw your pistol it is because you intend(or there is the possibility of shooting as is the case for LEO's) to shoot, otherwise you have no business drawing it. Once drawn it is your responsibility to control the firearm and access to the firearm at all times.
TDC
TDC you must be in quite the tizzy. I hear Glock is coming out with an option to install a Manual Safety on their fourth attempt at making the perfect pistol. Have you advised them how ignorant this decision is yet? If you already have I can assume they aren't listening.
No doubt you will take up your theory about the lack of need for adjustable backstraps as well. From your posts they should know it isn't about comfortable fit, but merely more training. The 4th Gen Glocks are said to have adjustable backstraps.
Oh well there goes the Glock neighbourhood.
Take Care
Bob
Its called marketing to the masses which are usually ill informed and have near zero training. No sense losing business to S&W and others who already offer interchangeable backstraps. As for manual safeties, well that's simply an attempt to convert the die hard 1911 guys to polymer. I can't understand why they would put out the effort. The positive attributes that make Glocks so simple and effective are lost on those who choose to run single stack, over weight tempermental dinosaurs like the 1911. I almost forgot, apparently you aren't supposed to close the slide on an empty chamber either.
TDC
ETA: I missed the bold print, let me address that.
Manual safeties are only effective WHEN THEY ARE ENGAGED. Where is your pistol when the safety is engaged?? IN THE HOLSTER. I have yet to see a handgun(or any firearm) pick itself up and discharge itself without the input of a human. Hold on, if a human is holding the handgun and has access to the trigger, that means the handgun is not holstered and the manual safety has been disengaged, making it USELESS, but wait! There's more! If you disengage the safety and place the pistol on the table/floor/dash/hood or hang it off a nail, there is ZERO possibility of a negligent discharge. Humans decide when to discharge a round, not the firearm. Remove the human and you remove the potential for an ND.
If you aren't engaging a target why are you drawing your pistol??
Trigger finger is an absolute in that you have 100% control of where you put it and when. Manual safeties can and do fail including being "wiped" off during the draw, re-holster, or sometime in between.
I agree that tripping or falling is an issue. If you keep your finger outside the trigger guard it really isn't an issue. If your SA pistol is a quality built and maintained firearm, dropping it shouldn't be an issue either. You state Bob that you leave your safety engaged while moving, what about the many others who don't, yet still champion the manual safety? Again I'll come back to your previous post about "whatever can go wrong will go wrong". The manual safety engaged while moving gives you peace of mind. However, based on your belief above, the safety should not be relied upon(which we all should know by now as mechanical devices do fail) and should not be ASSUMED to be engaged. Which brings us back to the one piece of safety equipment that YOU have absolute control over, yourself. More specifically your trigger finger. Add to that the sound belief that your pistol should remain holstered unless you intend to shoot and you're as safe as you can be. All without relying on mechanical devices and with minimal contact with the firearm. Running with your pistol drawn is both dangerous and ineffective. Run to position then draw, or draw then run to position. There isn't any difference.
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Read these two sentences and try to make some sense out of them. How is it ineffective. If I have to move 10 yards from position A to position B and time is of the essence I either:
1. Wait for a cab.
2. Crawl
3. Walk
4. Or run
You choose. Even in your world where bullets are flying at you with great rapidity as you stand your ground to protect your life and all the unwed virgins you know, I suspect you will choose 4. as the best option. But then again maybe you have taken Zen training and can be happy just thinking you are at B.
Maybe Glocks are considering introducing a Manual Safety because their are large Police Departments in the US who are now insisting on their officers firearms be so featured. Hell you might even see Glock introduce a "mag Safety" option. I have heard they may change the angle of their grip as well. Seems your perfect pistol needs a major face lift and Glock is finally listening to the marketplace. Stay tuned.
I do hope Glock takes your opinion on Manual Safeties under considertaion before making such "backward" moves.
Take Care
Bob
Again.... If you aren't engaging a target there is no need to draw your pistol. I'm not debating that running to position is the most efficient method of getting there. More to the point, if you rely on a mechanical safety you are wrong. Trigger finger discipline is paramount.
TDC
YOu obviously are a collector or a Bullseye shooter. For those of us who play IDPA and IPSC moving from A to B quickly with gun in hand occurs at every match we attend TDC. Keeping ones finger out of the trigger guard area eliminates one potential problem, flipping the safety lever up may eliminate another.
There is a place for manual safeties. The firearm industry knows it, most shooters understand it and you obviously don't. Leaving gun safety to that which exists between the shooters ears assumes more than some deserve. Lets leave it at that.
Take Care
Bob
I agree regarding your last sentence. That being the case, if they can't exercise trigger finger discipline what makes you think they are capable of muzzle control and actively using the safety?
I don't bullseye shoot and I'm not a collector which you should know by now. Running during a match has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with reducing ones time. Not to mention most matches be it IPSC, IDPA or any other event won't permit the holstering of a loaded firearm(aside from making ready for the stage) because most can't be trusted to do so safely. I find this practice both ignorant and insulting. If one is trusted to run during a stage with a loaded firearm, and one is trusted to load said firearm and holster it at the start of each stage(which I don't understand either). Then what is the issue with holstering during the stage? In my opinion, a lot of the "rules" at matches are put in place to allow the lowest skill levels or those with no skills to compete without getting shot or shooting someone else. That I find insulting. Lowering the standards to improve the numbers.
TDC
