Newb question 101--bullet range

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5Crows

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Hello,

I am very much a newb to the sport of shooting--and I really only have an interest in range shooting, not hunting. I am particularly interested in improving accuracy etc...

I am still getting a grasp on the physics of ballistics, as well as the different statistics of grains etc... so please bear with my ignorance.

My question is regarding the distances of different calibers, and I would like to verify my findings here.

I understand that the heavier the bullet, the less trouble it will have dealing with external factors such as wind; but the faster it will lose velocity and range. (I am only thinking of factory loads for bullets, not the reloading that can be done which will up the power of a cartidge).

I would like to use the .44 mag as an example:
I have read on forums (no official documents, so the information I have read is all personal opinions) that the max range that a lever action .44 rifle can fire is 100-150 yards. If that's true, could an experienced gunman fire the rifle further, more accurately? Would it be worth attempting to improve your skill with that particular caliber to fire further? (Keeping in mind that it's target shooting--so the risk of injuring any animal for a distance shot is not a concern).

I have a similar question with a 9mm handgun:
I have read that a typical handgun shot is 15-25 yards. (I believe law-enforcment officers train up to 25 yards) but the "practical accuracy" range of a handgun fired 9mm can be 50 yards. Is attempting to fire the handgun any further a pointless "show-off" sort of endeavour, or is it a worthwhile attempt at improving your shooting skill?

The reason for my questions is that I would really like to work on accuracy just to improve that skill. (I love darts and archery for the same reason--to get better at consistently hitting the target). I understand that there is a natural ceiling at which point a bullet cannot be shot past, and that ceiling is dependant on caliber etc (i.e. a .50 cal can fire accurately 2km). But my question is this:

Understanding that a long shot will not potentially and inhumanely be fired at an animal, are the distances of the calibers mentioned above the actual ceilings of those cartridges, or averages that can be improved on and eventually increased? (Without modifying the loads).

I haven't done as much research on the .22, but I belive it has the same range as the 2 calibers mentioned above as well. I downloaded a program that tracks the trajectory of the bullet and the .22 arcs a full 3 inches before hitting a target 100 yards away...if accuracy is the goal, am I better off just shooting with the .22 and forgetting the other calibers entirely? Or is the .22 ceiling literally at 100 yards?

Thanks!
 
I have accurately fired my 44mag rifle out past 125yrds. At 200 its a lost cause(for me), but if I take that 44 mag round and shoot it out of my... 45-70, Im back in the game out 300yrds + bigger case more power.

Part physics part magic.

Now with the 9mm. accurate out to 25yrds, yes in a 106mm barrel pistol. With a longer barrel, say like in an AR rifle 16" I can shoot out to 125 yrds with precision.(3-4" groups )

Now with the 22rf. Lots of fun. Hunting out to 75 yrds. accurate to 100-125yrds. But with a great gun and scope and having a log of what your ammo can do, I have had fun shooting steel at 300+ yrds. There is not much energy left but it will knock down a lite steel target.

welcome down the rabbit hole. You will always keep learning. And yes, you can allways improve an accuracy and precision.
 
you can shoot any bullet as far as you want and if all you are hitting is targets it will not make any difference how much velocity the bullet loses. Practically in law enforcement and hunting applications the ranges you speak of are what are actually gonna make sense to shoot at. The bullet might hit the target farther away if you can arc it properly, but it will not be hitting the target with the same impact force. If it is just targets you are shooting at then it is fun to see how far you can hit a target accurately.
 
First of all welcome to Gun Nutz.

A bullet doesn't just fall out the air and drop straight down, so max range and max effective range are 2 different things. I read an article once (maybe in the Lyman reloading manual) that answered the question on how far a bullet will travel. This was with the gun pointed at the optimum angle for maximum range.

Bullets do not arc up ever, unless the barrel is bent. The bullet starts a downward trajectory as soon as it leaves the barrel. However when aiming with the sights or scope mounted above the barrel, the sights point slightly lower so the flight of the bullet intersects with the line of sight. In doing so the bullet will interesct with your line of sight twice in order to hit point of aim. The second time the bullet crosses the line of sight may be beyond the target. It only appears the bullet is in an upward arc.

Are you better off starting with a .22? You bet, get an accurate one and shoot it a lot. An accurate .22 with the right ammo (read match=expensive) will shoot MOA out to 200 yards if you are able to read the wind well enough.

If you want to improve your shooting skills, shoot a .22 at 100 yards. After you have put a few thousand round down range then move up to something bigger and farther away.
 
Another noob question....

5Crows said:
Hello,

I am still getting a grasp on the physics of ballistics, as well as the different statistics of grains etc... so please bear with my ignorance.
.
.
.

I understand that the heavier the bullet, the less trouble it will have dealing with external factors such as wind; but the faster it will lose velocity and range. (I am only thinking of factory loads for bullets, not the reloading that can be done which will up the power of a cartidge).
Click to expand...

Is this true? Does a heavier bullet really slow down faster, or does it just start the trip slower? I thought the change in velocity was due to the drag, and more affected by the shape rather than the weight?
 
bobfre1 said:
Is this true? Does a heavier bullet really slow down faster, or does it just start the trip slower? I thought the change in velocity was due to the drag, and more affected by the shape rather than the weight?
Click to expand...

Get ready for a long winded physics student explanation. :p

Both.

I think weight does plays an important factor there, but not for the reasons you would assume. The weight itself is not an issue, but the extra size that that puts onto the bullet is. According to basic physics, all objects fall at 9.81 m/s^2. That means that a 9mm and a .45ACP round will fall at the same rate.

The catch is that if you add more mass, you add more size to the bullets dimentions, therefore increasing drag, causing the bullet to fall to the ground at a shorter distance, but at the same time as the lighter bullet. This means that although the two bullets could be fired at the same time, and would hit the ground at the same time, the heavier .45 would not travel as far as the 9mm does due to the drag on it.

Add that (high drag) to the fact that larger bullets usually (Not always) have a slower muzzle velocity, and you have a guarenteed shorter trip for the heavier bullet.
 
An even more physics-y explanation is that drag is a force, and is related (in no particularly simple way) to the cross-sectional area of the bullet and to it's aerodynamic shape (i.e. boat-tail versus flat tail, tip shape, etc.) But the deceleration that force causes in the bullet is also related to the mass of the bullet (F=ma, right?)

If we keep exactly the same bullet shape, as you increase bullet diameter, the cross-sectional area increases as the square and the mass increases as the cube. So a bigger, heavier bullet fired at the same muzzle velocity should, in theory, lose *less* speed than a smaller, lighter bullet. In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, of course, one generally does not launch bigger heavier bullets at the same muzzle velocities as smaller, lighter bullets. And bigger bullets tend not to be scaled up in all three dimensions from smaller bullets. And there may be details of the aerodynamics of bullets that require more than first-year physics to solve, and that quite demolish my understanding of things, anyway :)
 
Wouldn't a heavier bullet have increased momentum (for any given velocity) and`lose speed slower than a lighter bullet? Aren't long range sniper rifles LARGER caliber firing heavier bullets than shorter range ones?

Jeff
 
rhshooter said:
Wouldn't a heavier bullet have increased momentum (for any given velocity) and`lose speed slower than a lighter bullet? Aren't long range sniper rifles LARGER caliber firing heavier bullets than shorter range ones?

Jeff
Click to expand...

They do fire larger bullets, but the difference is that these larger calibers usually use necked cases, allowing the cartridge to hold a proportionally larger amount more smokeless powder then would be possible in a straight pistol cartridge. With those kind of rifle bullets, you increase the weight of the projectile, but also increase the amount of propellant that powers it. This takes care of the distance factor.

Another reason that sniper rifles tend to use large calibers is that the bullet will be less effected by environmental factors, such as wind and rain. They also have a greater momentum when they reach the target.
 
A higher mass bullet (for a given volume) has higher inertia, and it means it won't deviate as much in its velocity for a given force. It's less susceptible to deceleration from drag and drift from the wind, resulting in [what should be] less velocity loss downrange and better trajectory.

However, higher mass bullets (of the same calibre) are typically slower at the muzzle than lighter bullets, because a given amount of charge will accelerate a heavier projectile less, and heavier bullets should be fired out of barrels with higher twist rates for better stability. How much slower, and how much of that velocity is kept downrange are considerations. (ie. A heavier bullet is slower at the muzzle for a given cartridge, but if its downrange velocity at the range you're shooting at is faster than a lighter bullet, that has lost more velocity due to drag, it is clearly more advantageous to use the heavier bullet.)

It's a bit more difficult to compare different calibres, though, because there are other considerations such as differences in the physical size and shape of the bullet (which affects drag), and larger differences in muzzle velocity (which can also dictate the drag).
 
Kevin M. said:
Get ready for a long winded physics student explanation. :p

Both.

I think weight does plays an important factor there, but not for the reasons you would assume. The weight itself is not an issue, but the extra size that that puts onto the bullet is. According to basic physics, all objects fall at 9.81 m/s^2. That means that a 9mm and a .45ACP round will fall at the same rate.

The catch is that if you add more mass, you add more size to the bullets dimentions, therefore increasing drag, causing the bullet to fall to the ground at a shorter distance, but at the same time as the lighter bullet. This means that although the two bullets could be fired at the same time, and would hit the ground at the same time, the heavier .45 would not travel as far as the 9mm does due to the drag on it.

Add that (high drag) to the fact that larger bullets usually (Not always) have a slower muzzle velocity, and you have a guarenteed shorter trip for the heavier bullet.
Click to expand...
is g a constant? does it vary with elevation and earth changes? how bout at the poles compared to the equator?:D
 
'g' is an established constant, even though the acceleration due to gravity does vary over different parts of the Earth. If you really want to get into it, though, I suppose you could use GM/r^2, assuming you know precisely how far you are from Earth's centre of mass.
 
Just an example. Your 44 mag rifle could shoot a 240 gr JHP with a ballistics coefficient of .165 at 1700 FPS. If your rifle was zeroed at 100 yards you would be 18" low at 200 yards, 66" low at 300 yards, and 283" low at 500 yards. As long as the rifle groups good, and the distance is known accurately you should be able to make hits at considerable distance. At 500 yards your bullet would still be going nearly 800 FPS.

The ballistic coefficient represents the projectiles ability to overcome resistance of air in flight. When comparing bullets of the same weight and same muzzle velocity, the bullet with the highest ballistics coefficient will have the flatter trajectory.
 
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