Truing the action, is it worth it?

[Armafix]

LOL.
You should REALLY learn something about barrel length before you post stupid $hit like that
Have you ever even shot past 300 yds? I doubt it.

I've hit my Nalgene bottles a dozen times at that location.
Below are two of the three water bottles which I hit the day of the photo, at 1120 yds.

Do you understand now what can be done with a .308 in the right conditions?

It was not my intention to offend you or to make a laughing stock of you. If this happened, I'm very sorry and I apologize. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Yes, I shoot past 300yds and I know a little bit about barrel length and ballistics, too. And this is where my doubts came from. To put it in simple wards, barrel length determins the muzzle velosity and this one decides about the target velosity. To get any predictable and repeatable results the bullet has to hit the target with supersonic velosity of 1125f/s and up. I tried but I couldnt find any load in .308 which can do this out of 20" barrel at 1000yds and 1120 is farther still. I don't say that you cannot hit the gong or water bottle that far. What I say is that if you have hits, they are rather random and out of good luck. How many shots did you fire to hit this gong six times? By any standards you have an excellent rig but 1120 yards IMHO is a bit over its capacity.

Kazimier

 

[pazzo]

Kazimir,

On many levels, you are correct about what you said.

At 1120 yds, my bullets are just slightly above supersonic. I had no issues with bullets spinning (pics below).

You should try AMax or Federal MatchKings in 178gr if you want to get that far and successfully be supersonic. I was using 168 Amax, and a few shots got blown around a little.

You're right, NOT every shot hit the water bottles, but every shot did hit within inches. I actually knocked them down a bunch of times by hitting right beside them and collapsing the stand they were on. LOL.

 

[Obtunded]

I have (Gunmedic, DonP, CyaN1de, Shockman will attest) a 1 mile range on a combination of adjacent properties (hay fields at the base of a mountain) and this has allowed me to have some real fun with a variety of bullets and rifles.

One of the rifles I have played with at that distance was a completely stock M305. Now... I am not going to sit here and BS you that I could hit much with it, BUT with Port surplus, I was able to hold off enough that I was "in the ballpark" and I was hitting a 2' gong one shot out of about 5. Being a suspended saw blade, it really rings when hit too. It is wild watching the bullets in a spotting scope, for they appear to come from space and just drop onto the target.... yes, it took about 50 rounds to figure out the elevation, (Far beyond the adjustments in the scope) but my point is that even a low BC 308 bullet is capable of being steered some incredible distances.... not too many matches allow 50 sighters though

On the flip side, 1 mile (~1600M for you post imperial generation types) is NO PROBLEM for 6BR with 105 VLDs, and a 260 with 142 Sierras. I have also hit it with a 6X47 Lapua and 115's. I tried using a 338-08 but I could not even figure out where the bullets WERE landing, but that is no surprise.

I am looking into gaining permission to hold a 1 mile fun shoot...

 

[pazzo]

I am looking into gaining permission to hold a 1 mile fun shoot...

Now that would be fun - provided there were caliber specific "fun" prizes (nothing special - maybe a Starbucks gift card or something or that nature).

When/where? GET on it

 

[Armafix]

Kazimir,

On many levels, you are correct about what you said.

At 1120 yds, my bullets are just slightly above supersonic. I had no issues with bullets spinning (pics below).

You should try AMax or Federal MatchKings in 178gr if you want to get that far and successfully be supersonic. I was using 168 Amax, and a few shots got blown around a little.

You're right, NOT every shot hit the water bottles, but every shot did hit within inches. I actually knocked them down a bunch of times by hitting right beside them and collapsing the stand they were on. LOL.

Did you chronograph your loads? What is the recipie, of course if you don't mind? I don't have a 20" barrel rifle but I would gladly try it from a 26" one.

BTW the scenery of your practice range is increadibly beautiful. Mine is a big swamp. When weather cooperates, black flies and mosquitoes don't. Horror.
While looking on your pictures I discovered what I didn't know before. I can be jealous.

Kazimier

 

[Armafix]

I have (Gunmedic, DonP, CyaN1de, Shockman will attest) a 1 mile range on a combination of adjacent properties (hay fields at the base of a mountain) and this has allowed me to have some real fun with a variety of bullets and rifles.

One of the rifles I have played with at that distance was a completely stock M305. Now... I am not going to sit here and BS you that I could hit much with it, BUT with Port surplus, I was able to hold off enough that I was "in the ballpark" and I was hitting a 2' gong one shot out of about 5. Being a suspended saw blade, it really rings when hit too. It is wild watching the bullets in a spotting scope, for they appear to come from space and just drop onto the target.... yes, it took about 50 rounds to figure out the elevation, (Far beyond the adjustments in the scope) but my point is that even a low BC 308 bullet is capable of being steered some incredible distances.... not too many matches allow 50 sighters though

On the flip side, 1 mile (~1600M for you post imperial generation types) is NO PROBLEM for 6BR with 105 VLDs, and a 260 with 142 Sierras. I have also hit it with a 6X47 Lapua and 115's. I tried using a 338-08 but I could not even figure out where the bullets WERE landing, but that is no surprise.

I am looking into gaining permission to hold a 1 mile fun shoot...

Ian,

I know that for fun people can shoot any rifle or handgun at any distance. Some do it to prove themselfs. There are guys in our gun club who shoot .22lr at 200 and 300yds. They have lots of fun. I tried it too, but it didn't make very much sense to me.

Kazimier

 

[Chinbullco]

Fatboyz - I've seen a few Rem 700's with barrels whose bore size is not uniform. Get a lead slug and check the barrel. What you are looking for is a constant pressure required to push the slug from the breech to the muzzle. If the slug gets loose at the muzzle accuracy drops off. If that is the case, find the tight spot closest to the muzzle and cut and re-crown there. Hopefully someone did not already shorten the barrel in a "loose" spot. If you need barrel slugs PM me.

 

[pazzo]

Did you chronograph your loads? What is the recipie, of course if you don't mind? I don't have a 20" barrel rifle but I would gladly try it from a 26" one.

The loads which I hit the gong with at 1300 and the Nalgene bottles with at 1120 were Hornady 168gr Amax, 43.5gr Varget, CCI BR2 primer, 2.830 OAL @ 2568 fps. According to my calculations with my velocity, I am ~10' away (usually a few feet faster) than the speed of sound - hence the damage seen on my recovered bullets).
Now, I realize I should really be using 178gr Amax or similar, and that my loads are not quite as fast as they should be to shoot 1000+ yds, but they work just fine. I have tried hotter loads which weren't quite as accurate at the longer ranges. Maybe I'll try again!?

 

[Jamie]

Pazzo try IMR 4895 out of that barrel! way better then Varget IMHO in the shorter barrels

 

[lineofsight]

Pazzo try IMR 4895 out of that barrel! way better then Varget IMHO in the shorter barrels

What about Benchmark (little faster burning)?

Pazzo - same rifle different stock in the prone photo? Whats in the "PAZZO" bag - jelly beans?

I'm still mixed about 150gr v. 175gr - drift v. drop - suppose drop is more consistent than drift though.

 

[Armafix]

The loads which I hit the gong with at 1300 and the Nalgene bottles with at 1120 were Hornady 168gr Amax, 43.5gr Varget, CCI BR2 primer, 2.830 OAL @ 2568 fps. According to my calculations with my velocity, I am ~10' away (usually a few feet faster) than the speed of sound - hence the damage seen on my recovered bullets).
Now, I realize I should really be using 178gr Amax or similar, and that my loads are not quite as fast as they should be to shoot 1000+ yds, but they work just fine. I have tried hotter loads which weren't quite as accurate at the longer ranges. Maybe I'll try again!?

I just did the same calculations using two programs:
Point Mass Ballistic Solver and
Sierra Infinity 5
They differ because Point Mass is using BCG7 and Sierra BCG1 values in their calculations. According to Point Mass 168gr A-max has BCG7 average .230 and BCG1 .450. Sierra BCG1 value is .475 and they don't specify BCG7. For this bullet, 2568fps at muzzle and 1300 yds range the computed data are as follows:
-Point Mass velosity at 1300 yds 928fps supersonic up to 890yds
-Sierra respectevely 987 and 1040

If we agree with the latest ballistic science, that BCG7 is more accurate than G1, we can see that this bullet will be subsonic for almost one third of its flight. The energy at target is around 360Ft/Lbs; must be enough to penetrate the water bottle.

I have all the components you were using. I'll make some reloads for my Remi 700P and see what I can accomplish.
Thank you Pazzo and Merry Christmas.

Kazimier

 

[pazzo]

I just did the same calculations using two programs:
Point Mass Ballistic Solver and
Sierra Infinity 5
They differ because Point Mass is using BCG7 and Sierra BCG1 values in their calculations. According to Point Mass 168gr A-max has BCG7 average .230 and BCG1 .450. Sierra BCG1 value is .475 and they don't specify BCG7. For this bullet, 2568fps at muzzle and 1300 yds range the computed data are as follows:
-Point Mass velosity at 1300 yds 928fps supersonic up to 890yds
-Sierra respectevely 987 and 1040

If we agree with the latest ballistic science, that BCG7 is more accurate than G1, we can see that this bullet will be subsonic for almost one third of its flight. The energy at target is around 360Ft/Lbs; must be enough to penetrate the water bottle.

I have all the components you were using. I'll make some reloads for my Remi 700P and see what I can accomplish.
Thank you Pazzo and Merry Christmas.

Kazimier

Um...what atmospheric variables were you using?

The speed of sound at sea level is 1116 ft/s. The speed of sound at 820' elevation is 1113 ft/s and at 1640' elevation is 1110 ft/s. My shooting location is ~1200' elevation, which makes the speed of sound ~1112 ft/s.

My bullets at 1120 yds are travelling 1124 ft/s. This was calculated using the specific factors of that given day.
In this case, that day was: 80°F, 50% RH, 28.86 inHg station pressure (and of course, ~1200' elevation).

Here you go, since only pics make it true

 

[Mystic Precision]

http://www.mysticprecision.com/htm/rifle.php

Read the article on the 223 to a mile.

You most definitely do not need to be supersonic to have accuracy. In fact, you can be quite slow and have very predictable and accurate fire. The key is whether the bullet remain stable when it goes subsonic.

Some will some will not and there is only one way to find out.

I have shot the 155gr Amax out of 308 at 2850fps to 1450yds with no issues. I have shot a variety of the Amax bullets and they seem to handle going subsonic no problem

My present 223 pushings 80gr Amax around 2700fps from a 22" Shilen and I have no issues plinking at milk jug sized rocks at 1450yds.

The furthest I have pushed a 6.5 139gr Scenar is 2350 to 2400yds (GPS ranging so some degree of error). It is so hard to get enough elevation to go further.

This season, I will be testing the 7mm 180gr Berger out of a 7RM going close to 3100fps.

That should be good for some really long shooting.

Jerry

 

[pazzo]

Pazzo - same rifle different stock in the prone photo?

That pic is of my buddy and he's shooting a Remington 700 SPS-T w/ AICS stock. So basically the same rifle as mine (including the 20" 1:12 barrel and NF 5.5-22x56), but different stocks. He has had the EXACT same results as I have had with these distances, and ironically using the exact same loads.

Whats in the "PAZZO" bag - jelly beans?.

LOL. Those bean bags are custom. They were sewn tactically in a tactical manner by tactical AMERICAN hands

 

[Goose25]

tagged

 

[Rembo]

The accuracy is mostly in the barrel....at Easter 2008 a cgn member from BC visted me and I took a used Shilen BR barrel in 6PPC and a new LTR 308 and went to work. A few Heinekens later I had the Shilen barrel thread chopped off and rethreaded and rechambered to the plain old 243 and installed in the LTR action. Nothing was touched on the reciever at all. This rifle shot factory Ballistic Tip ammo well under an inch and IIRC handloads went well under a half inch when bolted into an SPS Varmint stock....the trigger was not adjusted either. This proved to me that most of the accuracy is in the barrel.....
I think the owner still has the rifle.....maybe he'll chime in....

 

[GunBoy]

Rembo, you are Too Honest!

 

[guntech]

A trued action is more likely to take a .300" rifle and take it into the 2's or lowerdepending on the cartridge. I have seen many factory 700's with a good barrel shoot under 1/2".

Truing is not something that will automatically guarantee great accuracy increases. It does give you peace of mind though... just like glass bedding or pillar bedding...

 

[X-fan]

Once you have a good barrel (and if you can shot) I think it is something worth doing.

I've had a few quite a few Remingtons done with just barrels and half a dozen with barrels and blueprinting.

I even had a few big bores blueprinted (300Win, 338 Edge, 375 Ultra) and they all shoot with such consistently I'm a believer. Nice consistent round groups with far less fliers.

Even the 375 Ultra....I wont for a minute suggest this one shoots smaller groups (than just a barrel), but the interesting thing about this one is that I can drop the first three shoot group on the table then drop the 5th three shot group over it and (for better or worse) they generally look identical....Interesting no?

The other odd thing with this rifle is first shot cold bore accuracy is ridiculously consistent.

 

[Ice-Pick]

No diggs here but..... isn't the Sendaro a hunting gun ?
Maybe the money would be spend wisely elsewhere if so.

M.