.40 cal, what weight?

[Dan-O-Mite]

This question goes out to those in Standard Division who tend to finish at or near the top of the division (if they don't mind sharing some of their knowledge). I have always shot a 180 grain bullet in .40. I'm curious as to what bullet weight the top shooters use.

I have considered moving to a 165 grain bullet because as I understand it will cause the gun to cycle quicker. However, I have also heard that a 200 grain bullet causes less felt recoil, making it easier to control.

Are these theories correct, and which do you follow?

Your responses will be greatly apprieciated.

 

[maurice]

180gr is what this mid grade shooter uses,..it is just easier to make PF with,...165gr has to be moving a bit faster to get 170pf. I find 165 snappier.

 

[bmw]

Yes 200 gr HP's are very low in felt recoil and easier to control. (with the right spring weight combo)

Cheers
BMW

 

[Madness]

180grn FMJ Montana Gold & 180 grn FMJ Zero

 

[curtdad]

Yes 200 gr HP's are very low in felt recoil and easier to control. (with the right spring weight combo)

Cheers
BMW

Just to echo, sorry im not in that upper group of shooters but have had some experience with this. I started IPSC shooting .45 and loved it. Ive been shooting .45s for 30 years. Afew years ago i was told to get with the 21st century and shoot a caliber that was competitive so i started shooting my sons .40 WOW, what a difference, after reviewing videos and looking at scores I found i was much slower and less accurate (if that was possible)
It just didnt feel right, and I couldnt figure out why. It was suggested that I try a 200gr, first match, late, no practice and no walkthrough, lol, best ever for me, with 2 stage wins. That did it for me, i found it had the grunt i was looking for and had missed but lacked the flip, if that makes any sense

Sig
DVC

 

[Dan-O-Mite]

Thanks for the responses guys, doesn't sound like too many guys like to shoot the lighter weight. I suppose I will have to go through the trials that most of you have already done, and find out what works for me with my gun.

I figured that would end up being the result of my curiosity and desire to keep moving up. At least I can see that perhaps my thoughts on faster cycle times are not worth the extra effort to control/deal with, the increased recoil factor.

Thanks again.

 

[Freedom Ventures]

180grn FMJ Montana Gold & 180 grn FMJ Zero

+1

 

[relliott]

I know there will be disagreement on this, but in general you can expect:
Heavier bullet = softer feeling recoil, more muzzle flip and slower cycle time/return to target.
Lighter bullet = more violent, less flip and quicker return to target.

Naturally there are other variables, powder choice being a very large one. But in reality you can pretty much shoot either end of the spectrum just as fast depending on what you are used to and what sort of feel you prefer. However, most of the top shooters tend to fall right in the middle with the 180-ish grain weights.

 

[t-star]

Just to echo, sorry im not in that upper group of shooters but have had some experience with this. I started IPSC shooting .45 and loved it. Ive been shooting .45s for 30 years. Afew years ago i was told to get with the 21st century and shoot a caliber that was competitive so i started shooting my sons .40 WOW, what a difference, after reviewing videos and looking at scores I found i was much slower and less accurate (if that was possible)
It just didnt feel right, and I couldnt figure out why. It was suggested that I try a 200gr, first match, late, no practice and no walkthrough, lol, best ever for me, with 2 stage wins. That did it for me, i found it had the grunt i was looking for and had missed but lacked the flip, if that makes any sense

Sig
DVC

so you've been using what?- a 230 or someting- there's a 200swc grain loading for the 45 that's been the norm for years- as long as i've been shooting and that's abt 1974 or so- 5,9 to 6.2 grains of 231- that gives hardball equivilent- you may have to change springs- i run a wolff 20 pounder in a colt series 70 with the collet bushing- the ONLY reason to go 40 would be to get extra rounds, not performance- look up the performance figures for the 45 vs the 40 and you'll see that there's only 50 fps or less using the 200 grain slug and that's right at the top end of the 40- the 45 with loads can go to 250 or more using 45 colt bullets

 

[Dan-O-Mite]

Heavier bullet = softer feeling recoil, more muzzle flip and slower cycle time/return to target.
Lighter bullet = more violent, less flip and quicker return to target.

As far as muzzle flip goes, does this sound right to the rest of you?

With the lighter bullet being more violent (from the higher powder volume to get the bullet moving faster I assume), would this not be the cause for more muzzle flip, not less?

 

[t-star]

nope- the heavier bullet generates MORE recoil and more muzzle flip- fire a 150 and a 180 grain 308 winchester sometime- faster and lighter generates LESS recoil /flip/whatever you call it than slow and heavy

 

[maurice]

nope- the heavier bullet generates MORE recoil and more muzzle flip- fire a 150 and a 180 grain 308 winchester sometime- faster and lighter generates LESS recoil /flip/whatever you call it than slow and heavy

yeah,...in a rifle with much more powder. We are talking about .40 handguns

 

[euxx]

Hmm... A load with heavier bullet would need less powder to reach required power factor (slower velocity), so I would think that recoil will feels softer and muzzle flip would be less too. I can't say about major load for .40 caliber, but it work this way for minor load in 9mm (124gr vs 147gr). 147gr AIM are really sweet... On the other hand, Rob usually know what is he talking about, so it is quite confusing.

 

[relliott]

As far as muzzle flip goes, does this sound right to the rest of you?

With the lighter bullet being more violent (from the higher powder volume to get the bullet moving faster I assume), would this not be the cause for more muzzle flip, not less?

Some of the violence will be in the muzzle blast, but mainly it's a question of duration.
Any 180 power factor (for example) load, no matter what the bullet weight is will apply exactly the same force in the opposite direction. The difference is in the TIME that this force is distributed across. A lighter bullet will have to be accelerated more quickly to reach the given power factor, as will be its equal and opposite reaction (recoil). So if you deliver the same amount of force over a shorter time it's going to feel more violent, and since the recoil is over more quickly it will also feel like it is less than that of the heavier bullet. Think punch v.s. push.

As well, recoil energy is accelerated both linearly along the bore axis and rotationally because the axis of the bore is above that of the arm, and it's divided between those two axis according to whichever mathematical variables are in play. Because the recoil pulse of the lighter bullet is relatively faster, it has less time to act on the rotational axis than the slower, heavier bullet, and thus a larger proportion of the energy is transmitted along the Z axis (the bore line). Ergo, same overall energy as the heavier bullet but relatively more linear force and less flip.

At least, that's my understanding of the physics of it. I'm no mathelete though so any engineers out there can chime in and correct if necessary.

 

[Madness]

find a load that uses components that are in good supply and give a consistant power factor then learn how to shoot your setup. In the long run you'll be better off then spending the time playing with different loads.

 

[Dan-O-Mite]

Some of the violence will be in the muzzle blast, but mainly it's a question of duration.
Any 180 power factor (for example) load, no matter what the bullet weight is will apply exactly the same force in the opposite direction. The difference is in the TIME that this force is distributed across. A lighter bullet will have to be accelerated more quickly to reach the given power factor, as will be its equal and opposite reaction (recoil). So if you deliver the same amount of force over a shorter time it's going to feel more violent, and since the recoil is over more quickly it will also feel like it is less than that of the heavier bullet. Think punch v.s. push.

As well, recoil energy is accelerated both linearly along the bore axis and rotationally because the axis of the bore is above that of the arm, and it's divided between those two axis according to whichever mathematical variables are in play. Because the recoil pulse of the lighter bullet is relatively faster, it has less time to act on the rotational axis than the slower, heavier bullet, and thus a larger proportion of the energy is transmitted along the Z axis (the bore line). Ergo, same overall energy as the heavier bullet but relatively more linear force and less flip.

At least, that's my understanding of the physics of it. I'm no mathelete though so any engineers out there can chime in and correct if necessary.

Thanks Relliott,

After I posted my last response, I began to think about the time factor in relation to the slide movement. Your explaination of the effect on different axis helps.

 

[euxx]

While Rob's explanation is very logical, I observe quite opposite effect after switching from 9mm 124gr to 147gr bullet. With 147gr muzzle barely flips. Now that you mentioned slide movement, I wonder if it because slide is kicked back not as hard. I also had to reduce recoil spring to make gun work with 147gr bullet and also using a faster burning powder with 147gr.

 

[maurice]

Some of the violence will be in the muzzle blast, but mainly it's a question of duration.
Any 180 power factor (for example) load, no matter what the bullet weight is will apply exactly the same force in the opposite direction. The difference is in the TIME that this force is distributed across. A lighter bullet will have to be accelerated more quickly to reach the given power factor, as will be its equal and opposite reaction (recoil). So if you deliver the same amount of force over a shorter time it's going to feel more violent, and since the recoil is over more quickly it will also feel like it is less than that of the heavier bullet. Think punch v.s. push.

As well, recoil energy is accelerated both linearly along the bore axis and rotationally because the axis of the bore is above that of the arm, and it's divided between those two axis according to whichever mathematical variables are in play. Because the recoil pulse of the lighter bullet is relatively faster, it has less time to act on the rotational axis than the slower, heavier bullet, and thus a larger proportion of the energy is transmitted along the Z axis (the bore line). Ergo, same overall energy as the heavier bullet but relatively more linear force and less flip.

At least, that's my understanding of the physics of it. I'm no mathelete though so any engineers out there can chime in and correct if necessary.

I am wondering if the time is irrelevant as the distance is so short over the axis? Maybe the heavier bullet energy is like you said, over a longer duration, however how can we measure it anywhere but when the slide is towards the rear, and slamming forward.(!) ie: we can feel the slide hitting the rear, and going back into battery, but not the slide movement totally.

 

[relliott]

While Rob's explanation is very logical, I observe quite opposite effect after switching from 9mm 124gr to 147gr bullet. With 147gr muzzle barely flips. Now that you mentioned slide movement, I wonder if it because slide is kicked back not as hard. I also had to reduce recoil spring to make gun work with 147gr bullet and also using a faster burning powder with 147gr.

Careful there Eugene; energy is energy. There's no free lunch with dissipation of energy. Some of what you are seeing/feeling is directly related to a separate variable...powder choice.

Remember; it's an equal and opposite reaction so with whichever bullet weight you are shooting, a 140 power factor exiting the muzzle will have exactly the same amount of energy going in the other direction. But by varying things like powder (burn rate), bullet weight springs, etc. you adjust the variables so that the timing of that load and its dissipation suits your personal taste. Note that the heavier bullet in your gun feels like it recoils softer (because it is spread out over a longer duration), so your perception is that it flips less. In reality, being softer it is easier for your eyes to track the sights. At the same power factor, the loads with the lighter bullet will in fact hit you harder in the hand, but won't tend to flip as much.

But perception is all that matters, and a violent load is more difficult to shoot due to extra blast, torque, and linear displacement. As well, it doesn't matter at all how high the gun flips. What matters is how consistently it returns to neutral and how well you can track the sights.

I think one of the things that really confuses the issue is the whole heavy bullet + fast powder combination that we have tended towards in IPSC production loads. This is the reason I used the words "in general" in my first post. Using the faster powders of course shortens the burn time, so the bullet is accelerated up to speed more quickly. Thus the relative recoil duration is reduced and along with it, some of the flip. So it's all really a carefully balanced trick. Use a heavy bullet to increase the recoil duration at a given power factor which softens the impulse. Since larger bullets require less powder to get them moving it also reduces the blast and violence that you would get from the larger gas column and lighter bullet. Then we also use a very fast burning powder to again decrease the recoil duration without the penalty of added violence and blast.

Bloody hell...I hope this makes sense to someone other than me. I'm getting a headache thinking about how to articulate this. Bottom line; like Madness said. Pick a load and practice with it until you are used to it. You'll be further ahead than messing around endlessly trying to find the perfect load.

 

[euxx]

Careful there Eugene; energy is energy. There's no free lunch with dissipation of energy. Some of what you are seeing/feeling is directly related to a separate variable...powder choice.

Actually, if you remember, I started with the same powder as for 124gr and that is when I got exited about recoil feeling with 147gr bullets. I had to switch to a faster powder only because I couldn't make the gun cycle properly with my old powder. Unique vs N320 that is. But I also agree with Madness that playing with load can screw you for long time, so it may be better just learn to shoot what you have. Yet I still don't regret it, I learned quite a lot in the process and after all I did got a better load and only because you helped me, Rob. Huge thank you for that.