M16 Comic, Likely a repost, but new to me - AR15 to CZ858 Comparison?

harbl_the_cat

harbl_the_cat

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Most people know, whether entirely truthful or not, that when the US Army adopted the M16 as their service rifle amidst the Vietnam war - the rifle had some serious problems in the Vietnamese jungles.

I was watching some Discover Channel documentary on Youtube when they started talking about a comic book the US army issued with their rifles to the troops - and found the comic book, here it is:

http://www .ep.tc/problems/25/

I have to honestly say after being trained on the C7 Service Rifle by the CF, I was a bit brainwashed with the whole "AR-15 style rifle is king." Coming into the civilian world, where AK47's are prohibited, it wasn't until recently - with the purchase of my first CZ858 that I realized how wrong I was.

Quite simply, the field strip of the AR-15/M16/C7 reveals terrible design flaws that are nightmare for soldiers operating in the field. That said, it's a real testimony to the degree of skill and the training (despite the recent "C7 Epic Fail video") of Canadian, American, and any other countries soldiers using this style of rifle.

If you think about it, if you lose your firing pin retaining pin or cam pin - you're done. As a function of my training, a typical field strip of a C7 involved disassemble of the bolt carrier assembly - which essentially meant removing the cam-pin and firing pin retaining pin.

Both of these parts are less than an half an inch, and if you're operating in a dark, sandy, muddy, wet environment - it's extremely easy to lose a thing like that.

It's quite the conundrum: despite these tremendous design shortfalls, recognized by the US army as soon as the rifle came into service (as evident through the creation of this absurdly hilarious comic book) variants of the rifle are still in service today almost 50 years after it's creation.

When I bought my CZ858, I had the typical mindset of most soldiers trained on the M16/C7: Clean the damn thing like a mofo. But after taking 10 minutes to learn how to field strip the damn thing (something that I think took a 2 hour lesson during Basic Training, combined with weeks of practice), that mindset quickly evaporated.

I don't know how functionally similar the CZ858 is to the AK47, though I've heard the argument that the CZ is a very similar pattern to the AK with subtle mechanical and cosmetic differences.

However, It is somewhat representative of the phenomenon Robert Heinlein brought up in Starship troopers in comparing "the bugs" to "the Mobile Infantry."

The bugs could raise up a fighting force within minutes of the MI's departing the planet, but if the MI incurred a handful of casualties relative to destroying hundreds of thousands of bugs, it was a strategic victory for the bugs.

The analogy being that it takes weeks to fully train a soldier to be effective with an AR-15 pattern rifle, while at the same time, it takes maybe a few hours to train someone up on an AK pattern rifle.
 
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Craftsman 441 said:
I can confidently say that the CF, or any other western military, for that matter, would also instruct the AK with two hour weapons classes and weeks of practice.
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I agree, and again, that's a testament to the level of training soldiers in the developed world receive.

That said, to be able to proficiently operate an AR versus an AK, given the logistics, maintenance, and complexity of mechanics - hands down, the AK seems like it's the superior rifle.

It's not something I gave much thought to, given that the firearm I first learned to shoot with was a C7 and when I was in the military I never fired any other rifle.

Someone mind setting me straight on whether an AK and CZ are comparable rifles? I've only ever fired an AK74, but never field stripped or cleaned it. The only functional difference I've observed is the AK doesn't have a slide lock like the CZ.

--EDIT--

Did some research on the AK field strip. Mechanically looks completely different from a CZ, but seems just as simple

-- DOUBLE EDIT --

I know this is a pointless ramble discussion, and AK vs AR is a big flame war waiting to happen, so I apologize in advance.

I'm playing hooky from work today due to a bad head cold, and want to avoid "Firearms Politics" as much as possible (hence reading the Black Rifle forum).
 
Odd seeing as Canadian soldiers are specifically taught to leave the bolt/bolt carrier assembled when cleaning under field conditions and never in the dark.The field strip is intended for "a clean dry area" IE your tent,barracks,etc.
As a matter of fact the Afghan Army is doing quite well with the C7,in an austere environment with limited support and spare parts. So much for the complicated nature of the AR design...Some here need to put down the gun rags and stop surfing Arfcom for your information.
 
Interesting that it says you can't clean the rifle enough, suggesting 3-5 times a day. Hahaha!
 
harbl_the_cat said:
The analogy being that it takes weeks to fully train a soldier to be effective with an AR-15 pattern rifle, while at the same time, it takes maybe a few hours to train someone up on an AK pattern rifle.
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The CF (and other armies) have to teach to the lowest common denominator as the majority of recruits have little to no exposure to firearms. Lessons are structured to ensure that everyone in the class understands the skills being taught and actions and drills are repeated to let it sink in.

Like Reaper said, the Afghans seems to be doing fine with the surplus C7's and M16's that they were given.
 
recce said:
The CF (and other armies) have to teach to the lowest common denominator as the majority of recruits have little to no exposure to firearms. Lessons are structured to ensure that everyone in the class understands the skills being taught and actions and drills are repeated to let it sink in.
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And the students are tired, stressed, sometimes for the first time ever away from mommy.
 
Interesting that it says you can't clean the rifle enough, suggesting 3-5 times a day. Hahaha!
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What this actually means is that your weapon is clean at all times. If you are firing your weapon alot in bad weather conditions you may have to clean it several times during a day. My day is a 24 hour period and it may not necessarily mean a thourough field strip cleaning either. Maybe clean enough to be preventative against your typical stoppage.
In my experience weapons cleaning comes before eating, resting etc... A little hunger or tiredness will not kill you but a fouling stoppage will if you are engaged in a sudden firefight.
 
Not that hard to clean.

Wipe crud off the bolt and carrier, inside of the upper/lower and run a patch through the chamber and bore. Liberal application of lube to bolt/carrier, trigger mech and 2 drops of oil in the gas key. Shazam! weapon cleaned.
 
The AK-47 and derivatives look superficially similar to the VZ-58 and derivatives, but mechanically they are very different. The parts aren't merely non-interchangeable, they do completely different things in different ways.
 
recce said:
Not that hard to clean.

Wipe crud off the bolt and carrier, inside of the upper/lower and run a patch through the chamber and bore. Liberal application of lube to bolt/carrier, trigger mech and 2 drops of oil in the gas key. Shazam! weapon cleaned.
Click to expand...

I just thought they were fuelling the overzealous cleaning attitude that can actually be damaging to a gun in the long run. What you do is what I do every few hundred rounds or as necessary. But of course, we don't wade through muck with ours.
 
harbl_the_cat said:
Most people know, whether entirely truthful or not, that when the US Army adopted the M16 as their service rifle amidst the Vietnam war - the rifle had some serious problems in the Vietnamese jungles.

I was watching some Discover Channel documentary on Youtube when they started talking about a comic book the US army issued with their rifles to the troops.
Click to expand...
Most of the "serious problems" encountered with the XM16E1 during the beginnings of the Vietnam War were actually mostly due to poorly trained troops with the weapon. Many of them being conscripts and thrown through the meat grinder, they lacked the proficiency required to operate the space-age rifle. Not to mention there were also a number of incidents that soldiers modified their weapons (i.e, shortening buffer spring for "higher RoF"), leading to many failures. Than, at a certain point, the army adopts a new type of 5.56 using a different propellant, which lead to mass fouling!

Anyway, the biggest issue was that the troops lacked the aptitude and/or proficiency deteriated (insufficient/improper maintanence) being mostly the cause of errors and since they weren't able to retain the knowledge and skills taught to them in Basic and AIT (whether due to training time contraints, or a failure in training methods), they began issuing the rifles with those comics specifically created to capture the attention and better disseminate the information to the common audience of recruits - of which majority were teenage boys. Was a clever idea, no doubt.

The whole misconception (myth) that the M16 was a complete peice of crap, prior to some improvements, was exactly that. Not to mention many soldiers were trained on the M14 before their tour and being issued an M16 afterward, caused much of the initial disapproval (especially since the rumor flying around about it being made by Mattel).
 
Reaper said:
Odd seeing as Canadian soldiers are specifically taught to leave the bolt/bolt carrier assembled when cleaning under field conditions and never in the dark.The field strip is intended for "a clean dry area" IE your tent,barracks,etc.
As a matter of fact the Afghan Army is doing quite well with the C7,in an austere environment with limited support and spare parts. So much for the complicated nature of the AR design...Some here need to put down the gun rags and stop surfing Arfcom for your information.
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Yes..because the ak side of our site is so much bigger and popular then the ar15 side! ;)
 
Demon971 said:
Most of the "serious problems" encountered with the XM16E1 during the beginnings of the Vietnam War were actually mostly due to poorly trained troops with the weapon. Many of them being conscripts and thrown through the meat grinder, they lacked the proficiency required to operate the space-age rifle. Not to mention there were also a number of incidents that soldiers modified their weapons (i.e, shortening buffer spring for "higher RoF"), leading to many failures. Than, at a certain point, the army adopts a new type of 5.56 using a different propellant, which lead to mass fouling!

Anyway, the biggest issue was that the troops lacked the aptitude and/or proficiency deteriated (insufficient/improper maintanence) being mostly the cause of errors and since they weren't able to retain the knowledge and skills taught to them in Basic and AIT (whether due to training time contraints, or a failure in training methods), they began issuing the rifles with those comics specifically created to capture the attention and better disseminate the information to the common audience of recruits - of which majority were teenage boys. Was a clever idea, no doubt.

The whole misconception (myth) that the M16 was a complete peice of crap, prior to some improvements, was exactly that. Not to mention many soldiers were trained on the M14 before their tour and being issued an M16 afterward, caused much of the initial disapproval (especially since the rumor flying around about it being made by Mattel).
Click to expand...

and if you believe THAT , there's a bridge for sale- the problems were with the GUN ITSELF- even after we got cleaning rods and misc items to keep the gun clean as well as the ammo- the cleaning rods came in through 4th echelon( care packages from home) -nothing to do with supply who had nothing but 30 caliber rod segments at the time- the m16 was first issued to special forces units,( and these guys are anal about keeping their weapons clean) who turned them back in unit strength with bolts welded shut( which was the powder) and broken firing pins, to the point that it was common to carry a complete carrier group in the buttpack to replace if yours went south- if you got the chance and you could get the bolt to the rear- the cocking handle would break too- if you had to force it to the rear to unlock that bolt- the m16 was traded every chance they got for anything that worked- thumpers, m1carbines, m14s, swede ks, you name it- and pick up any book from that era, and the theme was universal-so it's NO MYTH- what's not generally known is that the "cure" for the m16a1 was for the unit armourer or weapons man solved the problem by running a jag with an emery cloth attached to a 30 cal segment and a 1/4 inch drill into the chamber- it didn't jam after that- even with the "red" ammo- and the mag problems NEVER did get cured- most troops had at least 2 m16s in their locker- one for parade, the other was "an m16 of questionable origin" - that was the one carried on ops - which worked-the officers never caught on, or turned a blind eye
 
t-star said:
and if you believe THAT , there's a bridge for sale- the problems were with the GUN ITSELF- even after we got cleaning rods and misc items to keep the gun clean as well as the ammo- the cleaning rods came in through 4th echelon( care packages from home) -nothing to do with supply who had nothing but 30 caliber rod segments at the time- the m16 was first issued to special forces units,( and these guys are anal about keeping their weapons clean) who turned them back in unit strength with bolts welded shut( which was the powder) and broken firing pins, to the point that it was common to carry a complete carrier group in the buttpack to replace if yours went south- if you got the chance and you could get the bolt to the rear- the cocking handle would break too- if you had to force it to the rear to unlock that bolt- the m16 was traded every chance they got for anything that worked- thumpers, m1carbines, m14s, swede ks, you name it- and pick up any book from that era, and the theme was universal-so it's NO MYTH- what's not generally known is that the "cure" for the m16a1 was for the unit armourer or weapons man solved the problem by running a jag with an emery cloth attached to a 30 cal segment and a 1/4 inch drill into the chamber- it didn't jam after that- even with the "red" ammo- and the mag problems NEVER did get cured
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Small but magnum-loaded, the round is one of the most cantankerous in the history of American small-arms. Since 1964, when the Army was informed that Du Pont could not mass-produce the nitrocellulose-based powder within the specifications demanded by the M16, Olin Mathieson Company has supplied most ammunition for the rifle with a high-performance ball propellant of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine.

Known as Olin WC 846, the new powder is capable of firing an M-16 round at the desired 3,300 ft. per sec. and has unexpectedly increased the rifle's automatic rate of fire from about 850 shots a minute to 1,000. The result is that the "little black rifle," as the M-16 is fearfully called by the Viet Cong, tends to jam because the powder leaves behind a dirty residue that clogs the faster-moving automatic parts.



-Time Magazine, Friday, Sep. 08, 1967
 
"...M16 was first issued to Special Forces units..." USAF airfield guards and ARVN troopies, as I recall. It did come with a 'comic' user manual. Those are collector's items now.
The rifle was adopted due to political pressure from Robert McNamara's 'Think Tank' . Originally issued without cleaning kits. Advertised to the troopies as 'self-cleaning'. The humidity in SEA caused rusting and the ammo wasn't very good either. The rifles eventually had the barrels chromed and good ammo issued.
 
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