The Truth About Barrel Break-Ins?

Ganderite said:
I have broken in many new barrels and have watched others do the same thing. The reason we believe it helps is that we can see a change in the barrel over the first 20 shots.

the process involves firing 1 shot and then cleaning. This is done 3 to 5 times. It is always shocking how much crap comes out of the barrel after just that one shot.

Then I fire 2 shots and clean, then 3 shots and clean, then 5, then 10.

After shooting the 10 the barrel has very little fouling. It has changed over that first box. It is now broken in.

So, what would be differrent from just firing 20 shots, then cleaning?

I have a 20X borescope. After one shot, the barrel looks like a bowling alley with a lot of gravel on it. The crap include metal fouling hunks from the bullet jacket. If I was to fire another shot, this fouling get pounded into the barrel.

After 20 such rounds, the barel surface looks a little different than a abrrel that was broken in.

We who break in barrels are convinced that our barrels foul less and are easier to clean than if they had not been broken in. hard to prove that, though.

Custom barels are well finished inside. Most have been lapped. They may not need a break in as much as an ordinary factory barrel.

Don't try lapping your own barrel. You would probably use use the wrong type of lapping compound and do more harm than good.
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Gander
Couldn't agree more. I just shot about 20 rounds through is Ruger barrel in 250 Savage, couldn't believe how many patches it took to get that thing clean. FS
 
Yes, I've read their sites, and listened to the pro-shooters and read everything I can and take bits with grains of salt. Some mfgrs have a paragraph on it, some have full pages and some ie: Shilen even say that there are many differing opinions on it. I think its possible that it changes from barrel to barrel and person to person and sometimes you get outright lucky. So sometimes a little luck, magic and my voodo doll (a stuffed version of my rifles) is all I can hope for. (note:does not have the 30-60 yrs experience the rest have) seems like every guy I hear from has a different opinion and some are way out there and it seems like every one I talk to can't wait to give me their opinion.(The beating this topic receives does get somewhat tiresome).
 
joshledoux said:
Yes, I've read their sites, and listened to the pro-shooters and read everything I can and take bits with grains of salt. Some mfgrs have a paragraph on it, some have full pages and some ie: Shilen even say that there are many differing opinions on it. I think its possible that it changes from barrel to barrel and person to person and sometimes you get outright lucky. So sometimes a little luck, magic and my voodo doll (a stuffed version of my rifles) is all I can hope for. (note:does not have the 30-60 yrs experience the rest have) seems like every guy I hear from has a different opinion and some are way out there and it seems like every one I talk to can't wait to give me their opinion.(The beating this topic receives does get somewhat tiresome).
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Then refrain.

I check in on these to see if any "new" info comes about or different insight.
 
guntech said:
Gale's comment is all based on one barrel makers comments to him many, many years ago. An anecdotal story - a short account of a humorous incident.. true or false we do not know. Was the barrel maker serious in his belief? Does he think breaking in procedures involve 100 rounds? Who is this unknown barrel maker?

Just one mans comments... because Gale related the story does not make does not make that person more credible.

A big leap to the fallacy of "wearing your barrel out breaking it in" is the fact you only use about 20 rounds in breaking a match quality barrel in... and these are not wasted shots if you are checking for pressure signs and adjusting the scope. The only thing that would be wasted if indeed it is, would be the time involved. It certainly will not wear your barrel out any sooner.

Forget about what you read on forums, consult the quality barrel makers of today (They all have websites and some different points of view) and make your own decision.
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You need to read his entire post... not just one part... I'll post it here (but if you want to read it in context, click the link I posted on first page post):
Gale McMillan said:
I answered this and lost it on transfer so will shorten this one and try to get my point across in fewer words. When some one uses JB on one of my rifles I void the warrantee! For two reasons. ! it dimensionally alters the barrel dimensions and not evenly and the second reason is the barrel maker laps the barrel with a grit of lapping compound that is most effective in preventing metal fouling. Then a customer polishes that finish away with JB. I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the sharp edges are worn off the rifling. if it has JB used on it on a regular basis. As you know ,it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. As for using it on factory barrels I will say that while it is difficult to hurt a production barrel but the thing that hurts a match barrel will do the same to a factory barrel
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Gale McMillan said:
Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you doubt this look at the carbide eye on yout fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it.
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Gale McMillan said:
The metal shavings would have had to get in the barrel after it was test fired. The barrel was a hammer forged or buttoned barrel which is not machined and is very smooth finished. No one ever said not to clean a new rifle only that it is not necessary to break it in.
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TR11 said:
Well, since you've already put over 100 rounds through without cleaning, the real question is, do you really want to beat yourself up over not breaking it in if given concrete evidence that it would have been beneficial?
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I cleaned it when it was purchased, then cleaned it after first shot, then after second shot, then after third shot, then after fourth shot, then took 3 shots and cleaned one last time... but it stopped there :p It was "quite" clean every time... the only reason I hadn't cleaned it sooner from the 100 shots was because I'm still waiting on my bore guide and for a few reasons I dare not clean it without one :) But now I am questioning how often to clean it...

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
Gale McMillans comments about JB Bore Cleaning Paste are his opinion, an opinion not shared by the majority of those Benchrest Shooters who have been using this product for 50 years or more.

Poor cleaning procedures (like not using a bore guide or long stroking the cleaning rod) can damage a barrel. J.B. Bore Cleaning Paste used to remove fouling will not damage a barrel... no one has been able to demonstrate that it damages barrels. There are theories about JB on patches or on brushes but no test data has proven anything.

Back to the theory of 'breaking in a barrel'...

Match quality barrels are hand lapped by the maker. The throat that was cut into this barrel when the barrel was chambered was not lapped. This is the only part of the barrel that will 'break in'.. you can read more on this 'theory' by clicking on Dan Lilja's website. He expresses his opinion very well.

.22 rim fire bullets are not jacketed high pressure bullets and do not foul barrels in the way centerfire does. .22 rim fire barrels do wear out on the bottom of the barrel ahead of the chamber due to fouling deposited and the next bullet passing though it. This is easily seen after 200,000 rounds...
 
Koshy said:
I cleaned it when it was purchased, then cleaned it after first shot, then after second shot, then after third shot, then after fourth shot, then took 3 shots and cleaned one last time... but it stopped there :p It was "quite" clean every time... the only reason I hadn't cleaned it sooner from the 100 shots was because I'm still waiting on my bore guide and for a few reasons I dare not clean it without one :) But now I am questioning how often to clean it...
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Ah, you win. I clean my 22 about every 1000 haha.

Im still a little mystified on how a plastic rod can damage a stainless steel barrel, with such a great difference in hardness. But hey, i never studied materials eng.

Koshy, see ya tomorrow in the AM.
 
TR11 said:
Ah, you win. I clean my 22 about every 1000 haha.

Im still a little mystified on how a plastic rod can damage a stainless steel barrel, with such a great difference in hardness. But hey, i never studied materials eng.

Koshy, see ya tomorrow in the AM.
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As far as I know the plastic rod is not what is causing the damage (which is why you get a plastic rod in the first place), it is the jag you attach on the end that can potentially cause the damage (say if you don't have a bore guide). Also the crown of the barrel is very susceptible to damage, it is "balanced" kind of like the blades of Helicopters, any wear, damage or change in weight can throw it all off to disaster :p

And I think the concern of say aluminum rods (as you know aluminum is not as hard), isn't aluminum itself, but actually the grit and stuff that gets picked up... being ground into the barrel/crown.

It is a shame you aren't a material engineer, if you were we could get a study done for this and resolve this debate once and for all!

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
Well, my old roomie is a P.eng Materials engineer...i should talk to him about it the barrel break in process etc and see how much grit can get ingrained in the structure of the stainless. We worked on a cool study awhile ago on racing brake pad/rotor combo's for race cars, and the importance of the material transfer during break in of new pads/rotors from pad to rotor...sounds similar, in a not so similar way :)

Care to elaborate further on the crown? Im sure i could find it online, but.....you know...it'd be nice if i could just check back here and have it explained :)

Is it the conical shape, which needs to be free from obstruction and markings, directing the exiting gases to build and funnel more pressure for an extra "push" once the bullet has fully exited the barrel? Or does it need to be perfect so the bullet leaves the barrel all around its circumference at the exact same time, followed by a pressure cloud which is uniform around and behind the bullet?
 
I agree with Dennis. I've been using JB and RemClean which is JB Paste in a liquid for well over 15yrs. Before I used it I put some on a patch and rubbed it on a piece of mild steel for a few minutes and it wouldn't scratch it. It does get the copper and carbon out and I've not seen a better more thorough quicker cleanup and I checked it with a borescope too. Before that I tried everything else under the sun including Sweets 7.62. [Still have a bottle of that somewhere]

There is merit in barrel break in despite what Gale has said. Now, if I sold you a target gun and told you the barrel was broke in properly. Would you be more apt to buy that or the one I said was shot 100 times before it was cleaned?
 
FWIW around here we do not typically break in barrels unless specifically directed to do so by a client.
 
This barrel break in stuff is all anecdotal Bull$hit. There are paradigms and isms being refuted all over the place because science trumps traditions.

Until someone takes the time and money to properly evaluate the results using controlled studies, it is nothing but one person's OPINION against another.

If you break in your barrels, you are doing so because it makes YOU feel better, not because it has any demonstrated, repeatable and PROVEN benefit to the barrel.

Over-cleaning DOES damage barrels, and a crown damaged by this OCD break in superstition will undo any theoretical break-in benefit - guaranteed and proven.
 
TR11 said:
Well, my old roomie is a P.eng Materials engineer...i should talk to him about it the barrel break in process etc and see how much grit can get ingrained in the structure of the stainless. We worked on a cool study awhile ago on racing brake pad/rotor combo's for race cars, and the importance of the material transfer during break in of new pads/rotors from pad to rotor...sounds similar, in a not so similar way :)

Care to elaborate further on the crown? Im sure i could find it online, but.....you know...it'd be nice if i could just check back here and have it explained :)

Is it the conical shape, which needs to be free from obstruction and markings, directing the exiting gases to build and funnel more pressure for an extra "push" once the bullet has fully exited the barrel? Or does it need to be perfect so the bullet leaves the barrel all around its circumference at the exact same time, followed by a pressure cloud which is uniform around and behind the bullet?
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That's cool, you should ask him!

More so the second one. Here is a link you can check out that explains it quite well: http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_crowning.html

Also, maybe if we are lucky someone at the ORA Winter Training tomorrow will have a magnified bore cam tomorrow :p I would love to see what the inside of my barrel looks like :)

Obtunded said:
This barrel break in stuff is all anecdotal Bull$hit. There are paradigms and isms being refuted all over the place because science trumps traditions.

Until someone takes the time and money to properly evaluate the results using controlled studies, it is nothing but one person's OPINION against another.

If you break in your barrels, you are doing so because it makes YOU feel better, not because it has any demonstrated, repeatable and PROVEN benefit to the barrel.

Over-cleaning DOES damage barrels, and a crown damaged by this OCD break in superstition will undo any theoretical break-in benefit - guaranteed and proven.
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It is nice to see a barrel maker, not lowering his morals to make more money :p
I would like to ask though, for a typical Cold-Forged Mandrel barrel, how many shots would you wait between cleaning the barrel on average or does it really differ a lot between the makers (if so, mine is a Steyr)?


Thanks,
- Koshy
 
Obtunded said:
This barrel break in stuff is all anecdotal Bull$hit. There are paradigms and isms being refuted all over the place because science trumps traditions.

Until someone takes the time and money to properly evaluate the results using controlled studies, it is nothing but one person's OPINION against another.

If you break in your barrels, you are doing so because it makes YOU feel better, not because it has any demonstrated, repeatable and PROVEN benefit to the barrel.

Over-cleaning DOES damage barrels, and a crown damaged by this OCD break in superstition will undo any theoretical break-in benefit - guaranteed and proven.
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I won't argue with that. I'm still waiting for scientific proof myself.

My point being is that many shooters are superstitious. That's why I threw out the who would buy one broke in or not. I have shot brand new Krieger, McLenans, Hart, Shilen match barrels broken in and not both ways. Cannot tell which ones won me a match because they both did and do not foul either.

Cleaning methods are indeed another story both based on fact and superstition.
 
Barrel break-in procedures may be described as "voodoo, black magic" only if one blindly follows some specified procedure without being aware of what's happening within the barrel.
I have always believed in wiping the barrel out with a wet patch (I still use Hoppes /9 and will likely continue to do so) and inspecting the bore. If there was copper fouling present, I would clean the barrel thoroughly and fire again and repeat. If there was no fouling present after the first shot, I would fire again, wipe with a patch and inspect. If I was able to fire five shots in this manner with out fouling, I would clean thoroughly then fire a five shot group. If, during the course of firing this group, I got an unexplainable flier, I would patch the barrel and inspect. Usually fouling would be present so I would clean and try again. Most BR quality barrels will quit fouling within 10 rounds or less.
Nothing to do with barrels is voodoo or black magic. The making of barrels is accomplished using common machining techniques. Flaws can usually be seen and/or measured. If a barrel fouls, there is a reason for it and this is usually related to internal finish or to the finish in the throat. "Breaking in" can improve matters considerably.
The bottom line is, there is no good reason not to do it. I've shot enough to have learned that fouled barrels don't shoot as well as barrels which are not fouled.
I think the removal of minute burrs in the throat is important and, to this end, believe lapping after chambering can be beneficial.
Gale MacMillan made very good barrels and helped other makers as well (Neville Madden, Rob MacLennan). Like most barrel makers, he was opinionated and like most who are opinionated, he was occasionally wrong (as am I). Those who don't want to break-in their barrels, will embrace his comments. Those who don't mind following some sort of break-in procedure will ignore them. Regards, Bill.
 
armorman said:
Sorry if it's been discussed before but what is "long stroking"?
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Earlier in this thread...

The most important thing in cleaning a Rifle is to STOP that jag and brush the instant it clears the muzzle, not allowing that rod to rub on the bottom of the barrel while in motion.
 
Koshy said:
I would like to ask though, for a typical Cold-Forged Mandrel barrel, how many shots would you wait between cleaning the barrel on average or does it really differ a lot between the makers (if so, mine is a Steyr)?


Thanks,
- Koshy
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Clean it when it tells you it needs to be cleaned. if the gun is shooting accurately, why clean it? Some hammer forged barrels (Remington) are ghastly and foul faster than white gonch at a prune-eating contest. Others (Tikka) can resist fouling quite nicely and of course there are exceptions within every brand.
 
This could be fun!

I bought a new rifle a month ago and posted a question on the Alberta forum asking who believes in break in procedure and who doesn't. Like this thread there are a lot of opinions and very opinionated people both for and those who feel it is a waste of time, ammo and just wears the barrel faster.
My reasoning for conducting the break in was for many reasons:
1. I am going to semi retire a BRNO custom rifle which is 40 years old and still shoots well after over 4000 rounds (although many told me it would be shot out in 2000 rounds 20 years ago)
2. the BRNo was broken in prior to delivery to my friend who ordered it by the riflemaker
3. I want the new rifle to be as accurate as the old rifle 3/8 inch capability at 100 yards
4. many companies such as H S Precision recommend a break in procedure
5. shooting is about confidence in the tool you are using so I wanted to have every confidence that I had done anything possible to make this rifle a shooter.

Things weren't looking very good New Years day when after 2-3 cleanings and firings my initial groups were plus 1 inch!

70 rounds later (yesterday) I got 3 holes touching on one of 3 targets shot still sighting in a .10 MOA scope.

I figure I may have another 30 rounds and three or more thorough cleanings before I really see what this rifle is capable of.

Oddly enough as most nay sayers will argue I have no way of proving this same rifle wouldn't have shot 3/8 group without the break in procedure and they are right. I just do it because every time I do use this break in procedure I seem to get a very accurate rifle. Maybe it is just cooincidence!
 
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