Over loading the Marlin

H4831

H4831

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OK, here is my story. Firstly, the 44 magnum cartridge is loaded to the same pressure for both revolvers and the lever action rifles chambered for it. And this load is pretty skookum. The various loading books show the pressures going to 38,000 and 40,000 CPU. Elmer Keith, not known for pussy cat loadings developed this cartridge and his standard load was 22 grains of 2400 powder. This is one of the heaviest loadings one wants to use with that cartridge.
Once came to the range when a lone shooter was there. He had a Marlin 44 magnum with the action opened, trying to get a spent case out of the chamber with his jack knife. I got him a screw driver and together we pried and tapped and got the case out. I told him the chamber must be terribly dirty. "No, new rifle," he said. It was one of the earlier models in that calibre. Chamber looked and felt, polished.
I asked him about his ammo. He told me it was his handloads, but before I could say anything, he told me they were not over loaded. He told me the powder, which was a bit fast for the 44 mag with the 250 grain bullets he was using. Then he said, "I am only using xx grains." I started to take a deep breath for letting loose at him, when he cut in and said, "They use xx grains of that in revolvers." And the correct figure he gave for revolvers, was about two thirds of the load he was using! He followed up with, "A rifle is a way stronger than a revolver!!"
The full power load for that powder in the books is about 17 or 18 and he was using, from memory, something like 24 grains.
He cut me right off from any further conversation, and loaded another round. I put distance between us, as there was another big bang. He was a big man. He grabbed the lever, gave a mighty yank, the action opened, but left the case stuck in the chamber! I took my screw driver and went home.
Just imagine what pressure there was to seal the case that tight to the chamber walls.
But here is something to think about. Just think how strong those Marlin lever rifles are. There appeared to be no damage, whatsoever, from this tremendous over load. Years later he is still shooting the rifle!
There has been a lot about reloading for Marlin rifles lately on these threads. We have seen where loaders for the 30-30 for a Marlin are concerned about reaching the "maximum," load in the book for that cartridge. We are for ever hearing the expression, "I don't want it to blow up in my face."
No, none of us want the rifle to blow up and we are not advocating over loading, beyond what the books say. However, just think of the safety factor built into our rifles, in case we do get a bit heavy.
 
This reminds me of the guy at my club a while back who forgot to bring ammo for his .45 Colt Ruger single action Revolver. But luckily he had remembered to bring some of his .44 mag handloads. This came to my and the range officers attention when he had to remove the cylinder between firing to pound out the cases with a dowel and hammer. He told us about forgetting the right ammo, but the .44 mag he had works fine, just ends up a little tight in the chamber after firing. The range officer didnt think anything was wrong with this, nor a couple other people that were shooting beside him. I packed up and went home, as my advice was clearly not needed here.
 
I have read- but I do not *know* - that a heavy, strong revolver (like a Ruger Redhawk) is actually stronger than most lever rifles.

I can see how that would make sense. Lever rifles don't have such powerful "lock up" systems like a bolt action, and the big revolvers have lots of steel around the chambers.

I've never tested the pressure it takes to blow up either, so I don't know for sure, but it was Ross Seyfired who said it, IIRC.
 
H4831 said:
We are for ever hearing the expression, "I don't want it to blow up in my face."
No, none of us want the rifle to blow up and we are not advocating over loading, beyond what the books say. However, just think of the safety factor built into our rifles, in case we do get a bit heavy.
Click to expand...

a few years ago, me and MTM were at Mission, and found a guy with a 30-378 tapping the bolt open with a block of wood.

Being curious, we asked what he'd shot, and his buddy replied that it was a book max load.

What was the load? he took a Nosler manual max load, and seeing that it showed 90% load density, and his buddy wanted a MAX load, he added 10%.

Best part, after MTM and I told him not to, he shot another. We ducked over to the other side of the pickup in case, and this time the bolt stuck solid, and we gave him the names of a few local gunsmith and he went on his way, the reloader buddy muttering something about checking the manual.
 
I just read on Cast Boolits how a feller showed up at the Los Angeles rifle range with a new .50 cal. rifle and some handloads, fired one shot and blew his arm off, damaged one side of his body including face, but lived through it.
 
Unbelievable how careless reloaders seem to be pretty commonplace. Interesting also is that these guys always seem to be convinced that what they are doing is safe. Whenever I see someone like that I prefer to keep a good distance :D

Makes me also wonder about some of the used guns on the rack too. How much abuse have some of these things seen....

Chris.
 
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Gatehouse said:
I have read- but I do not *know* - that a heavy, strong revolver (like a Ruger Redhawk) is actually stronger than most lever rifles.

I can see how that would make sense. Lever rifles don't have such powerful "lock up" systems like a bolt action, and the big revolvers have lots of steel around the chambers.

I've never tested the pressure it takes to blow up either, so I don't know for sure, but it was Ross Seyfired who said it, IIRC.
Click to expand...

I have head the same thing, but I don't think even a Redhawk would stand that terrific overload.
P.O. Ackley thinks the lever actions are much stronger than given credit for. Also, he says it is the case holding onto the chamber wall, like I saw, that keeps the pressure off the bolt face. He has proven that an improved 30-30, or 250 Savage, by making the case with less taper, allows for much greater pressure than the original.
He has had chambers swell from excess pressure in straight wall cases, all held by a lever action Model 94, without damage to the lever action.
The 44 magnum is a perfect example of a straight wall case, and what I saw it was really glued to the chamber. I would hate to guess at what the pressure was.
When Ackley blew up military actions, he found it quite hard to do. One Japanese action kept blowing barrels off, but the action remained servicable.
In all the actions he blew up, he thinks only two would have given serious wounds to a shooter, had the shooter been holding the rifle to his shoulder. Those two were the Springfield and the Krag. The reason for this was each of those had an enlarged firing pin and gas escaped backwards through the hole. The Springfield blew the cocking piece off.
Other than that, the actions were eventually ruined, except the one Jap, but none "blew up," with pieces flying.
He always had to use faster powder than the cartridge was designed for, and in some cases had to bore out the chamber to get a larger case full of powder, before anything dire would happen.
 
If anyone here is really interested in the topic, P.O. Ackley has two books on the subject, a fascinating read.
For example he actually fired a '94 Winchester with no locking block installed in the rifle. (he extended the firing pin) It did not blow the action open.

I agree with Ackley, in general, that lever guns and other rifles are a lot stronger than we have been led to believe.
However, that's not true of every individual rifle. Some designs, and some well worn rifles may not take much abuse.
The model, '92 Winchester is for example, an incredibly strong rifle. I credit it's design with me still being able to see. After a load I mistakenly ran through of a pressure that blew the case head off, expanded the primer hole to the point it fell out, and pretty much deafened me with the report.
The mistake? I was working up a load for a powder that had no published data available for my cartridge, and moved the grains measure instead of the tenth's measure on my scale. That, coupled with me being distracted by a deer on the range, resulted in my shooting the maximum load from the wrong end of the loading block out of sequence.
I did a double take when I looked at the scale when I got home. Holy F##ck.
I was using a fairly fast powder, it was not a small increase.
 
This actually relates to a question I was pondering the other day:

You have two different guns: The 1895M (.450 Marlin) and the 1895G (45/70).
Both guns are identical, except for the chambering, right?
Both are built on the same 336 action.
Now if you look in the book at the loads for the .450 Marlin, there are some pretty stiff pressures there. But the same book will warn of dire consequences if you load an 1895G with loads of similar pressures as the .450 Marlin. The way I see it, a 336 action is a 336 action and a G should be able to take the same pressure as an M.
Or is there something I'm missing here?
 
Yes, I often look up something from those two volumes of P.O. Ackley's.
And Edawrd T, Johnn, on these threads, a couple of yeas ago sent me his copy of the August 2007, Handloader magazine, which has a long article, with lots of tables, for the Marlin 45-70.
The tables start out with, "Loads that do not exceed 21,000 CUP," then go up to this one, "---Do Not Eceed 43,500 CUP."
He said Marlin would not say outright that he could fire these in the 1895, but they didn't say he couldn't, either. So, you will note on it, he fired all those loads with a 22 inch 1895, and said he felt comfortable in doing it.
As a point of interest, I haven't loaded any that were beyond the 28,000 CUP class, and some of those made my head ache after just a few were shot.
So, regarding your question, I think you are making the correct assumption.
I say again, this table is copied from the August 2007 issue of Handloader magazine. I am sending it with no comment, as to it's safe use by anyone, and not sending it be used by anyone. It is sent as interest in the subject, only.
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Edward Teach said:
This actually relates to a question I was pondering the other day:

You have two different guns: The 1895M (.450 Marlin) and the 1895G (45/70).
Both guns are identical, except for the chambering, right?
Both are built on the same 336 action.
Now if you look in the book at the loads for the .450 Marlin, there are some pretty stiff pressures there. But the same book will warn of dire consequences if you load an 1895G with loads of similar pressures as the .450 Marlin. The way I see it, a 336 action is a 336 action and a G should be able to take the same pressure as an M.
Or is there something I'm missing here?
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The 45-70 has very thin case walls, other than that, I don't see a lot of difference either.
However, I had a very powerful load worked up for my 1886 Winchester, (custom gun) that froze up a friends Marlin GG at least temporarily.
Do not assume that one gun is as strong as another.
My personal belief is that the barrel is more important than the action when it comes to strength, as long as the case or chamber is not lubricated.
If the chamber is lubed, then action strength becomes paramount.
 
reloaders

as for a 44 Marlin rifle I have never tried 2400 powder but I have used 24 grains of H110 in mine with a 240 grain bullet which is a book load and you can feel it in your shoulder when you shoot it.

this guy at my club told me one day he was expermenting to see what was the least amount of powder he could load in his brand new smith 629 . well he told me he lodged a bullet in his barrel on his first attempt and the next time at the range it detonated . yes his gun came apart and the top strap is still in the ceiling at our club and then he told me he managed to get Smith&Wesson to give him a new gun because he told them the gun was faulty.

I thought to myself if I was standing beside buddy and his gun blew up he might have been eating the rest if he had admitted to me what he had done . too little powder is no good and too much is'nt any good either . I think that's why they sell reloading books and the powder companys give the customers books on thier own products .

trying to understand why people do stupid things just messes me up so I give up . LOL :nest:
 
Okay to all you 44 mag reloaders. I have two rifles in 44, a 44 mag timberwolf, pump and a rossi lever. I also shoot a Redhawk with a 7 1/2 inch barrel, for years i have been shooting Lee's 214 gr SWC with decent enough accuracy. I have been given a lee six cavity mold, 240 gr SWC with gas checks, I have heard that H110 is the ultimate powder for the .44. I have loaded up some test loads 21gr,22 gr, 23gr, 24 gr, seems to me this seems to be about the right range for the bullet and cartridge.. any thoughts??
 
H110 seems to work best for me near the top end of the load chart. If you have no pressure issues, I think that's where you'll end up.
I'm not familiar enough with those rifles to know anything about their strength. My wifes 96 Ruger lever gun likes 23 or 24 grain loads of H110 for best accuracy with 240 grain bullets.
 
Like John said, top end. Winchester 296 is said to be the same as H110 and I can't see any difference between the two.
My cast bullets weigh from 245 to 255, depending on what mix I use. I use either 24 or 25 grains of either powder, and never fiddle around trying for better accuracy with less of either powder.
If you want a bit less velocity for lighter recoil, I go to 2400 powder. 22 grains of 2400 is the classic, full power load. I find 20 grains to be at least as accurate and less recoil. If you are shooting at long range, like 200 metres, there is almost no difference in drop between 20 and 22 grains of 2400. I know, I shot silhouette with the 44 mag revolvers, and ended up using 20 grains.
22 grains of 2400 chronographed in my guns just a bit more, than did 24 of H110 or W296.
With your lighter bullet you could likely add a grain or so, to the figures I gave.

Edited to say I didn't notice your new mold of 240 grains. It's in the same class weight as mine, but your Redhawk is stronger than any of the Blackhawks, (2 with 7½" barrels, one with 10", or the two 29s with 6½") that I used.
 
H4831 said:
I use either 24 or 25 grains of either powder, and never fiddle around trying for better accuracy with less of either powder.
Click to expand...

The fact that this load was worked up before I was born, was good enough for me. 24.5 gr h110 is my go-to load, I only keep it at 24.5 to give myself a little margin for error with the metering. These loads are definitely full power, but I wouldn't call them uncomfortable by any means.
 
I can`t speak for H110 because I haven`t used it, but I`ve put a lot of Unique through both my Ruger Redhawk with a 5.5 inch barrel and my Browning model 92 lever. 11 grains for the revolver, and 11.5 for the rifle seem to be the most accurate with a 240 grain cast round nose, no gas checks. I have to admit, I`ve never done a `formal` load workup on either one. I really should get on that one of these days.....in between the billion other things I`ve decided I want to do :rolleyes:

I figure if I live to be about 135 years old, I should be able to get at least half of them done. LOL.

If you ever want to try something interesting with your 44 mag revolver, fill a few cases with IMR 7828 magnum rifle powder (read: slow burning powder). We chronyed mine repeately at 495 fps. It`s completely useless for target shooting, but it was kind of neat to be on the 50 meter range and hear the pop of the gun, then......wait for it.....and then the thump as my 240 grain slugs bounced off of...not went through...a new half inch sheet of malomine target backer board. You can`t help but kind of laugh at a 240 grain slug going Canadian Tire air gun speeds :D It had about the same recoil as my Ruger 22 pistol. It would have been interesting to see how much muzzle flash it had (probably huge). Unfortunately, it was an extemely bright sunny day when I tried it.
 
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