Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

BUSHMAN79 said:
I would only consider an antique revolver for defense against wild dogs, mountain cats, wolves, or coyotes. The probability of stopping a charging bear with any antique revolver is pretty slim.
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And the alternative is .....? Before you say 'rifle', I'd like to direct you back to post #5 on page one of this thread. Secondly, we are talking about last resort, point-blank, bear/cougar-taking-you-down, or your wife, or one of your kids, when all you've got is what happens to be in your hand, or on your belt. Again, look at post #5.

These things happen. Several years ago, up near Chapleau, ON, a Black Bear attacked a man's wife while they were hiking. All he had was a knife. While the bear was working over his wife, he went to work stabbing it. He did drive the bear off, but his wife was dead and he was injured. The muzzle of an antique 44 Russian firing into the bear's ear, would have stopped the bear much sooner and probably saved the woman's life. I've fired dozens of 44 Russian and 45 Schofield bullets into blocks of Maple, enough to clearly see that one fired point blank into the side of a bear's head, is going to penetrate several inches at minimum, and more likely 6 or 8 inches. You can also fire into it's open mouth at its spine, or into the underside of its throat up into its brain. Avoid between the eyes shots, where the bullet hits at a shallow angle and can be deflected by the skull. As for bullets, I recommend the Keith style cast bullet with its wide meplat, which tends to be less susceptible to deflection.
 
My "old" Remmy with a factory 240gr hc 44spl Remington Express coming out of the pipe would make a black bear notice.They punch thru stuff alot tougher than a bear!
I've taken enough bears with a bow and have skinned and cleaned enough skulls to know that round ,or 6, would fix em.
let's be realistic,ANY iron is better than none when there's a life at stake.And who honestly would give a rats @ss or a second thought to the govments laws if it was life or limb?
 
I would rather have an antique revolver, even a .22, than have to use my fists or a knife. BUT, a rifle is still a better bet. Sure, a pistol bullet will penetrate a bear skull, but have you guys ever been attacked by a bear? They approach in a crouch, head low. They don't come in from the side, presenting a perfect side-on shot. Their heads are constantly moving, as well, making it a tough target. In all probability, a .44 Russian slug would just bounce off the skull in such a frontal attack. It might knock the bear out, or scare it off. Then again, it might make him really angry, too. I might consider an antique revolver, but only as a backup to my rifle. I used to wander the woods with my old .32-20, but after a few close encounters, I upgraded to a .30-30. Now, I pack a .45-70. If nine shots from that don't stop a bear, no antique revolver will help me!
 
We're not talkin about packin rifles and havin a hog leg for backup.
And it's not about what's better.
We started out talkin about an antique being concealed or not under yer coat in the bush.
It's turned into havin an iron to hand when yer hands are full or doin other things.
I think there's enough rifle vs handgun threads already...
I think we all know a rifle is a better bet...cept that's not what THIS discussion is about.
I've been charged twice by black bears.Stood my ground both times and they pulled up short.Would have been a different story if I'd have run.
I didn't see any side to side head movement,it was a couple of slow steps followed by a burst of speed straight at me.Those heads didn't move,they were locked on target.
I don't know what 44 Russian you bin shootin but my hc handloads go thru both sides of a 45 gallon drum without problem,and the hole on the backside is as round as the one on the front...and they're back seat to the 44spl loads.
Now I gotta ask,are we talkin about regular old blackbears here,cuzz they're not built any sturdier than anything else...or super duper sabre tooth metal head zombie bears?

Those are the ones to worry about... ;)
 
My Antique solid framed guns can handle some wicked strong hand loads useing Smokeless gun powder and Lead cast Bullets SWC.
My 1875 Remys and SAA Colts in 44 Russian or 44 Sp are strong guns that handle the hotter loads.
But im talking my special 2400 Smokeless powder loads same as elmer keith shot in his old guns.
The Presure curve is close to BP
I can push a 245 gr SWC at over 950 Fps and Up^^^ now you cant tell me thats not gona sting some :)

Even 800 + FPS loads will do alot of damage. All depends on the bullet you use to.
I only load Keith type SWC as they cut full caliber holes in stuff and i find them very accurate.
If your useing RN Bullets your not gona get as much shock as you would with a lead SWC and stuff bleeds out fast with the SWC to. ;)
 
BrotherRockeye said:
We're not talkin about packin rifles and havin a hog leg for backup.
And it's not about what's better.
We started out talkin about an antique being concealed or not under yer coat in the bush.
It's turned into havin an iron to hand when yer hands are full or doin other things.
I think there's enough rifle vs handgun threads already...
I think we all know a rifle is a better bet...cept that's not what THIS discussion is about.
I've been charged twice by black bears.Stood my ground both times and they pulled up short.Would have been a different story if I'd have run.
I didn't see any side to side head movement,it was a couple of slow steps followed by a burst of speed straight at me.Those heads didn't move,they were locked on target.
I don't know what 44 Russian you bin shootin but my hc handloads go thru both sides of a 45 gallon drum without problem,and the hole on the backside is as round as the one on the front...and they're back seat to the 44spl loads.
Now I gotta ask,are we talkin about regular old blackbears here,cuzz they're not built any sturdier than anything else...or super duper sabre tooth metal head zombie bears?

Those are the ones to worry about... ;)
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Well put,

A bit off topic but related.

Last summer I was on a solitary fishing/camping trip, I had the canoe all packed up after a day and a night camping in one spot.

I usually go for 4-5 days and move camps, fishing from shore at each different camp I make.

As I push off from shore and start paddling, I hear a ruckus behind me....Ill be damned if it wasn't a bear in the middle of the small clearing.

My snider cadet was all rolled up and packed away....

He/she did not chase me out....But yikes.

I figure the thing may have been out there all night trying to work up the courage to come in to camp, the smell of me frying up fish must of been quite tempting.

I probabily would have sh!^ myself if it came into my tent while I was sleeping -in all honesty-

Wont catch me out in the boonies unarmed, sometimes I think people forget that were made out of meat aswell.
 
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This whole idea is scary. I take a non restricted rifle 7.62 and 12 gauge every time, but I'd like to take a handgun as well because it can be on the ready. Makes me wish the laws were different here because I don't want to live in the U.S.
All in all I'd rather lose my collection than come back without my child. I know that sounds like I am all for breaking the law, but I would break the law to save my kid in a deadly situation. I just hope I never find myself in a situation that makes me wish I'd have brought a restricted so my son could still be with me. The idea of having an antique side arm sounds like a reasonable choice.
If I were in charge, I'd change things a bit. You hear a bear coming (usualy), but to have you child stalked by a mountain lion?
SCARY.
My 2 cents.
 
BrotherRockeye said:
it would be nice if "concealed" carry was a viable option.
I have the coolest .450 Bulldog that would be perfect when I'm fencin and such but it disappears with anything other than a tucked in shirt...

can't wait to read your summary 38!
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I could be mistaken, But I thought I read that there was a section in the firearms act that allows for a CCW to be issued in Canada. If I'm correct you must be trained to the same extent as a RCMP constable. But, the buracrates will not issue them because once they do they have to issue, (or deny them because you would be able to challenge their denial in court at their expense) to anyone qualified, unless they have a legal reason not to. (IE. criminal record etc.)
I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure the NFA has covered this in one of their articles.
 
Win 38-55 said:
That's it. With regard to antique firearms, the regulations regarding storage, handling, etc., are quite minimal. Regarding storage and display, they must be 'unloaded'. With regard to transport, specifically, antique handguns, they must be in a locked case.

There's nothing here in 117(h) that we did not already know.

I echo what Dingus said .....
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Aren't I just one hell of a s**t disturber...:runaway:

My whole point is to get the discussions going...usually it brings up other things that some of us have overllooked or didn't know about, or even just plain forgot.

I aint lookin' for a fight...just stirrin' the pot. :D

Doesn't seem to matter how much research I put into something...whenever I decide to go back to an issue I researched 3 months ago, I can never find my notes.

But Win and Dingus are right. Ive had one of my antiques on me and ran into a fellow on the trail...took it out to show him, give a bit of the story about the old girl and he never asked a question...turned out he was a LOE. They don't seem to mind as long as you are responsible about it. Don't be an idiot and we're alright.
 
the judge said:
Sharps '63 said:
It could also get you shot or worse, Tasered with a CEW. Do you really trust our trigger happy cops?QUOTE]

WOW..ouch!

Of course you have a pile of data to back up your statements...right? I mean SO many people are shot by the police in Canada....not. :jerkit:
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getting back to some legalities.i just came back from Calgary gun show..
a.buys a rifle,and soft case .
b.buys a rifle,and a hard case.
c.buys a rifle,and gets the box.
d.buys a rifle.andgets nothing else.

they all catch the bus or LRT,
soft case looks like a gun.
hard case looks like a gun
box has pic of a gun and says SAvage,on it
gun looks like a gun


are the first 3 guilty of conceald carry

is the driver going to let 4th guy on the bus?
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1. Unless you really need it, there is no point to have your ass kicked by the police....

2. con·ceal (kn-sl)
tr.v. con·cealed, con·ceal·ing, con·ceals
To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide
 
Its deffinatly a great thing that we can carry and use some form of pistol in the bush, hopefully one day we can upgrade it back to all pistols.
 
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Huh?

Tyockell18

Who says we can legally carry an 'antique' handgun in the boonies? Give the me the section of the CCC where you found that or some exemption from a provincial firearms act.
The moment you transport it or discharge it, it becomes like any other handgun and your ass is grass.
We aren't discussing the validity or utility of packing for SD in the boonies, but the legalities of same.
In the "legalese" column of this forum, I asked the question - "Who's been there-done-that". The fact that someone claims to have shown one to a LEO who was not gun-paranoid is insufficient reassurance for anyone to take a chance and regard it as a precedent. He was lucky.
Admitting to packing a pistol in the boonies, antique or otherwise is stupid. 'Big Brother' is watching ......
 
Carrying an antique handgun in the bush is not something I'm interested in doing right now, but I looked in the criminal code and firearms act and don't see where it says you can't do so. Have you found any regulation that makes it illegal?
 
Sharps '63 said:
Tyockell18

Who says we can legally carry an 'antique' handgun in the boonies? Give the me the section of the CCC where you found that or some exemption from a provincial firearms act.
The moment you transport it or discharge it, it becomes like any other handgun and your ass is grass.
We aren't discussing the validity or utility of packing for SD in the boonies, but the legalities of same.
In the "legalese" column of this forum, I asked the question - "Who's been there-done-that". The fact that someone claims to have shown one to a LEO who was not gun-paranoid is insufficient reassurance for anyone to take a chance and regard it as a precedent. He was lucky.
Admitting to packing a pistol in the boonies, antique or otherwise is stupid. 'Big Brother' is watching ......
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I suggest you read NFA's learned legal opinion on the relevant crinimal code sections http://www.nfa.ca/node/130. I am aware of no case law that exists that clarifies it any more.

The criminal codes makes specific references to what makes ownership and transport of a prescribed antique as less onerous than a registerable handgun. If you want specific anecdotal example. I have been stopped by police, customs agents and challenged on what they perceived to be relevant transportation regulations and need for registration for a antique handgun. I had no difficulty pointing out the correct requirements, I did not get arrested the 3 occasions this occured, no confiscation occured, nor any court dates arranged.

I have no problem stating I have discharged an antique on private rural property. As no provincial hunting, municipal or criminal code limitations/ violations occured. In fact at one point we were target shooting with a crown attorney, who as an officer of the court would have no problem busting my ass or in the very least pointing a problem out to me. I have had many conversation on these points with this legally knowledgeable gentleman none of which proved your contention that "the moment you transport it or discharge it, it becomes like any other handgun and your ass is grass."

Take my anecdotal experience for all it's worth, but I honestly think you are looking for something that does not exist.
 
This may be of interest...this is my personal "fact sheet" that I carry with my antique revolvers.
the second two parts should be of particular interest to you.

ANTIQUE VERIFIERS NETWORK


Phone 1-800-731-4000(CFC)
Press 1 for english
press 1 for the extension,

Extension is 1090

All you need is the

make-

model-

serial number-

caliber-


##############################################################################

Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms

SOR/98-464

CRIMINAL CODE

His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice, pursuant to the definitions “prescribed”a and “antique firearm”a in subsection 84(1) and to subsection 117.15(1)a of the Criminal Code, hereby makes the annexed Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms.

a S.C. 1995, c. 39, s. 139

Registration September 16, 1998

REGULATIONS PRESCRIBING ANTIQUE FIREARMS

PRESCRIPTION

1. The firearms listed in the schedule are antique firearms for the purposes of paragraph (b) of the definition “antique firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code.

COMING INTO FORCE

2. These Regulations come into force on December 1, 1998.

SOR/98-472, s. 3.

SCHEDULE

(Section 1)

BLACK POWDER REPRODUCTIONS

1. A reproduction of a flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearm, other than a handgun, manufactured after 1897.

RIFLES

2. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

3. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, whether with a smooth or rifled bore, having a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine.

SHOTGUNS

4. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

5. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or 410 gauge cartridges.

HANDGUNS

6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.

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Under the current legislation, "any antique firearm" is not a "firearm" for the following purposes:

1. Firearms Act: None of the provisions of the Firearms Act, including those requiring registration, licences, ATTs and/or ATCs, apply to any "antique firearm."

2. CC s. 91 and 92: Possession of any "antique firearm" without a licence or registration certificate is legal.

3. CC s. 93: Possession of any "antique firearm" at any location is legal.


4. CC s. 94: Being in a motor vehicle with any "antique firearm" is legal.


5. CC s. 95: Being in possession of a loaded "antique firearm" (which is also a "restricted firearm" or a "prohibited firearm"), or one with readily accessible ammunition is legal even if the person is not the holder of any licence, registration certificate, ATT, or ATC.

6. CC s. 99: Transferring or offering to transfer any "antique firearm" is legal.

7. CC s. 100: Dealing in any type of any "antique firearm" is legal.

8. CC s. 101: Transferring any "antique firearm" is legal if the transfer apparently violates the Firearms Act.

9. CC s. 103 and 104: Importing or exporting any "antique firearm" is legal.

10. CC s. 105: Not reporting the loss or finding of any "antique firearm" is legal.

11. CC s. 106 and 107: Not reporting the destruction of any "antique firearm" is legal, and knowingly making a false report of that type to a firearms official or the police is legal.

12. CC s. 117.03: A peace officer who finds a person in possession of any "antique firearm" is not authorized to demand that the person present a licence, registration certificate, ATT, and/or ATC.

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ANTIQUE FIREARMS-storage,transport,display




14. (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.


(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if


(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and



(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.



(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
 
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