What Next?
- Thread starter blargon
- Start date
How much?
It would be more-prudent if I waited until after you build the wtby before we begin "negociations".
Why does it beat it? 15 extra grains of powder for 200fps more doesn't beat anything for some people.
When you can put the crosshairs on a deer's chest and clobber it from zero to 400 yards then you may understand. There's a whole lot of fantasy involved in a whole lot of 7 Rem Mag loads.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
hmmmm, IMO chronograph readouts don't fit into what you might call "fantasy"
I can clobber a deer from zero to much beyond 400 with my .25-06, 7RM, .308, etc. I also fail to see the "magic" of the 7STW.
I can clobber a deer from zero to much beyond 400 with my .25-06, 7RM, .308, etc. I also fail to see the "magic" of the 7STW.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
to the OP,
Good call avoiding the .300WM, but the 7RM is still quite close to the .338 in recoil and power. I would fill your lineup with something more along the lines of .25-06, .257WM, or 6.5-06AI. You want long-range, accurate, and capable of mice to moose? 6.5-284 or 6.5-06AI fit the bill nicely. They excel in the "coolness" category, as well
Good call avoiding the .300WM, but the 7RM is still quite close to the .338 in recoil and power. I would fill your lineup with something more along the lines of .25-06, .257WM, or 6.5-06AI. You want long-range, accurate, and capable of mice to moose? 6.5-284 or 6.5-06AI fit the bill nicely. They excel in the "coolness" category, as well
hmmmm, IMO chronograph readouts don't fit into what you might call "fantasy"
I can clobber a deer from zero to much beyond 400 with my .25-06, 7RM, .308, etc. I also fail to see the "magic" of the 7STW.
You can hold center chest with a .308 and shoot point blank out to 400 yards with thinking about trajectory?
Good call avoiding the .300WM, but the 7RM is still quite close to the .338 in recoil and power. I would fill your lineup with something more along the lines of .25-06, .257WM, or 6.5-06AI. You want long-range, accurate, and capable of mice to moose? 6.5-284 or 6.5-06AI fit the bill nicely. They excel in the "coolness" category, as well
My .338WM recoils @ ~ 34ft lbs, the 7mmRM is @ ~ 20ftlbs. Quite a difference, but both will kill the animal in the end...I already picked up a 7 mag, but may do a 257wby or swap for a standard action yet...
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
You can hold center chest with a .308 and shoot point blank out to 400 yards with thinking about trajectory?
Who said anything about center chest? I certainly have no need for a center chest hold, and I can assure you that I have no problem hitting small targets at 400 yards with my .308.
Any regarding your comment about not thinking about trajectory- If an animal is beyond 300 yards, then I'm going to use my LRF. Two reasons: 1) I usually have more than enough time when the animal is that far away. 2) I've been wrong before when judging range (sometimes the terrain is tricky), and an animal that I think is 400 yards away could easily actually be closer to 450 or 500. Once I've got an LRF reading, there is no reason for a center chest hold when I've got a ballistic reticule as well as turrets.
Just FYI, with a 10" vital zone and a 130gr TTSX coming out of the muzzle at 3100fps, my .308 has a 384 yard MPBR when zero'd at 330, according to JBM ballistics. Not that I would ever use such a method for shooting long range.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I get more like 28 ft-lbs for the 7mm when calculating the recoil force of my rifle/load setup, but regardless, I'm not disputing the fact that the .338 has more recoil than the 7mm. I'm just saying that you have the big boomer role filled, you want flat shooting, and capable of mice to moose, if it were me, I would want something along the lines of the .257 Weatherby or .264. Keep in mind that if you want to shoot long range, there is a MUCH greater variety of great long-range bullets in .264 than there is in .257. You could always unscrew the 7RM tube, and order a .264WM barrel for that action you've got, or better yet, go the 6.5-06AI route...
Jordan Smith,
Your use of LRF and turrets or stadia lines aside, (I've been known to use such marvels too) the "magic" of the STW is to dispense with such things to farther distances than most anything one could name. That was more important when the only decent rangefinders cost more than a good used 4 by and the affordable one was pure junk.
Your use of LRF and turrets or stadia lines aside, (I've been known to use such marvels too
) the "magic" of the STW is to dispense with such things to farther distances than most anything one could name. That was more important when the only decent rangefinders cost more than a good used 4 by and the affordable one was pure junk.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Jordan Smith,
Your use of LRF and turrets or stadia lines aside, (I've been known to use such marvels too
Agreed. I'm not disputing that the STW shoots flat, but as you said, with the availability of good LRF's, drop compensating reticles, and turrets that provide accurate windage and elevation adjustments, the "magic" of the STW is old news and has been rendered obsolete. I NEVER SAID THAT IT'S NOT A GREAT CARTRIDGE.....because it is. Will it do anything for me that the 7RM won't do? Nope.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
What, are you kidding me?
Why would he skip the 300 Win?
The 7mag is nothing like the 338Win in recoil and is not even close in pure horsepower.
They have a sale on glue?
He would skip the .300WM because it recoils almost as much as the .338, and there's really nothing that the .300 will do that the .338 won't do.
I have owned and shot the 7RM and the .338WM, and I will tell you that the FELT RECOIL of a rifle is NOT the same as the calculated recoil number of a given load. The 7Mag can be nearly equal to the .338 in the recoil department if you put both cartridges into the appropriate package. I have a 7lbs 7RM that kicks just about as hard as my friend's 9lbs .338.
Short of Africa, there is nothing that I would take on with a .338 that I wouldn't take with a 7RM. If I want bigger than a Big 7, I'm going straight to the NEW KING (grin) of the .375's. The .338WM just doesn't offer "enough" more than the 7RM for me to bother with it.
Just to clarify the point that I was making in the post above, the 7RM, .300WM, and .338WM all recoil substantially more than a .25-06 or 6.5-06. That is the point that I was trying to make. The smaller two cartridges have light recoil, shoot flat, and have enough power to take anything in Canada (I wouldn't want to go toe to toe with a grizz with either of them, though).
Yup, Glue....Or more likely, young.
You are comparing rifles that are two pounds apart and the 7mm probably has a super stiff carbon/kevlar stock?
In this (apples and oranges) comparison you are right, recoil is about the same, but the 7mm's gun velocity is much higher (which is what gives it a nasty snap).
Make them both weigh the same and the 338 has 50% more recoil AND higher gun velocity.
The 7mag is child's play by direct comparison.
The 7mag will indeed kill what you point it at....So will the 6.5's, and 270's of the world. Real large moose, big bears, bison, and trophy class bull elk will all die from a good 7mm bullet...The questions are where and when?
Shoot enough real big game with a 7mm and you'll see what I mean.
Dead is good, but if when and where it happens is important the 338Win is a good answer. The 7mag is a mere bee sting to one of the above in a pissed off state.
Stick to what you know, because you surely do not know the 338 Winchester.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
What is with the personal jabs??? Just because your opinion is different than mine, I'm a glue sniffer or a high school kid? Grow up.
This is the last time I will say this. THE .338 DOES RECOIL MORE THAN THE 7MM. The 7mm can be made to have similar FELT recoil to the .338 if conditions and rifle packages are just right. And no, my 7RM does not have a carbon/kevlar stock. It is a Husky lightweight with a beautiful walnut stock, FYI.
The .338 is NOT the end-all, be-all game stopper, in case you didn't know. As a guide in the NWT, I personally witnessed one of my hunters put 4 (FOUR) 225gr SP slugs from a .338WM into a bull caribou's shoulders from 200 yards away. All 4 bullets exited. You would never have known that a single bullet had touched that bull, based off of his reaction; until the herd started moving away, and he lagged behind a bit. When we walked up on him, he struggled to his feet, and the hunter finished him. Internal damage was massive. The .338 is a GREAT cartridge, but if I want to stop something with claws and sharp teeth, I'm using a .375 or bigger. For everything else, my 7RM is more than enough. A .338 is a fantastic one-gun battery, so why would you need a .300 or 7mm, when you could own something that fills the arsenal gap a bit better, like a .243, .25-06, etc.The BULLET CONSTRUCTION is far more important in how effective your gun is, than the name that's stamped on the brass. You can feel free to use whatever the heck you want.
PS. Enough with the personal shots. If we can't discuss this like grown-ups, then I'm finished with this conversation.
This is the last time I will say this. THE .338 DOES RECOIL MORE THAN THE 7MM. The 7mm can be made to have similar FELT recoil to the .338 if conditions and rifle packages are just right. And no, my 7RM does not have a carbon/kevlar stock. It is a Husky lightweight with a beautiful walnut stock, FYI.
The .338 is NOT the end-all, be-all game stopper, in case you didn't know. As a guide in the NWT, I personally witnessed one of my hunters put 4 (FOUR) 225gr SP slugs from a .338WM into a bull caribou's shoulders from 200 yards away. All 4 bullets exited. You would never have known that a single bullet had touched that bull, based off of his reaction; until the herd started moving away, and he lagged behind a bit. When we walked up on him, he struggled to his feet, and the hunter finished him. Internal damage was massive. The .338 is a GREAT cartridge, but if I want to stop something with claws and sharp teeth, I'm using a .375 or bigger. For everything else, my 7RM is more than enough. A .338 is a fantastic one-gun battery, so why would you need a .300 or 7mm, when you could own something that fills the arsenal gap a bit better, like a .243, .25-06, etc.The BULLET CONSTRUCTION is far more important in how effective your gun is, than the name that's stamped on the brass. You can feel free to use whatever the heck you want.
PS. Enough with the personal shots. If we can't discuss this like grown-ups, then I'm finished with this conversation.
I own a few 375's and 416's so yes, I know the 338 is not a crusher.
I said the 338 was a good answer not the end all be all solution.
You said, "Short of Africa, there is nothing that I would take on with a .338 that I wouldn't take with a 7RM"?
Saying things like that made me think you were some young kid that had shot his first few animals and had yet to have something go wrong (that would be why you got the jab).
It now seems you should have included more detail in that statement?
No more jabs....Sorry if I offended you.
What happened to your client and the caribou is a common occurance on small to mid sized game with the 338. It happens as a direct result of light resistance, moderate velocity, and very heavy bullet construction....The animal is dead, but doesn't know it yet and usually travels a short distance (usually).
A 338 Ultra would have floored the caribou like lightning .
As likely would have the 300Win BTW.
This does not happen with large game as the bullet gets worked enough to perform as designed and while the animal may not be floored it will certainly be noticeably sick.
Anyway...Peace.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
First of all, thank you for the friendly post, I appreciate it.
I actually did add more detail- here is my original statement:
"Short of Africa, there is nothing that I would take on with a .338 that I wouldn't take with a 7RM. If I want bigger than a Big 7, I'm going straight to the NEW KING (grin) of the .375's. The .338WM just doesn't offer "enough" more than the 7RM for me to bother with it."
It's just my personal preference, but if I feel that I need more than a 7RM, I'm going WAY up, right on past the .338. In another instance while guiding in the NWT, I woke up at night to take a piss, and as I got about 10 feet from the grain bin where we were sleeping, I heard a noise. I shined the flashlight to my left, and there was a big grizz about 10-15 feet away. Luckily, the bear ran away from me instead of over me. I have stared down more than one grizzly at close quarters, and while I would feel perfectly comfortable hunting the big bears with a 7Mag, I would only do so if I could take the shot from a distance, but if it had to be an "up close and personal" affair, I would want someone beside me with a .375 or bigger.
Like I mentioned above, when I opened up the caribou, the internal destruction was massive, which led me to believe that the bullets were expanding just fine. Destroyed tissue is destroyed tissue. I don't believe that any other gun or bullet would have dropped that bull any quicker (maybe a VLD, but I guess we'll never know). If you had seen the condition of the heart and lungs I think you would agree with me. My conclusion is that some animals, much like people, are just plain tougher than others. In my experience, some animals drop on the spot from a FMJ through the lungs, and others run a long distance with vital soup in their chest cavity. I have also observed that most animals (especially caribou) get exponentially tougher after you put the first bullet into them, with subsequent bullets having less visible effect.
Anyways, it would appear that you and I agree more than we thought, after all.
Have a good weekend.
I actually did add more detail- here is my original statement:
"Short of Africa, there is nothing that I would take on with a .338 that I wouldn't take with a 7RM. If I want bigger than a Big 7, I'm going straight to the NEW KING (grin) of the .375's. The .338WM just doesn't offer "enough" more than the 7RM for me to bother with it."
It's just my personal preference, but if I feel that I need more than a 7RM, I'm going WAY up, right on past the .338. In another instance while guiding in the NWT, I woke up at night to take a piss, and as I got about 10 feet from the grain bin where we were sleeping, I heard a noise. I shined the flashlight to my left, and there was a big grizz about 10-15 feet away. Luckily, the bear ran away from me instead of over me. I have stared down more than one grizzly at close quarters, and while I would feel perfectly comfortable hunting the big bears with a 7Mag, I would only do so if I could take the shot from a distance, but if it had to be an "up close and personal" affair, I would want someone beside me with a .375 or bigger.
I agree that what you described can be a common problem with larger calibers on lighter game, but what happened in the case of that caribou is different, I believe.
Like I mentioned above, when I opened up the caribou, the internal destruction was massive, which led me to believe that the bullets were expanding just fine. Destroyed tissue is destroyed tissue. I don't believe that any other gun or bullet would have dropped that bull any quicker (maybe a VLD, but I guess we'll never know). If you had seen the condition of the heart and lungs I think you would agree with me. My conclusion is that some animals, much like people, are just plain tougher than others. In my experience, some animals drop on the spot from a FMJ through the lungs, and others run a long distance with vital soup in their chest cavity. I have also observed that most animals (especially caribou) get exponentially tougher after you put the first bullet into them, with subsequent bullets having less visible effect.
Anyways, it would appear that you and I agree more than we thought, after all.
Have a good weekend.
