Robinson Arms sues Remington, Bushmaster, RRA

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Interestingly, since the announcement of the ACR's weight, I've seen a LOT of renewed interest in the XCR, especially with the teething issues being worked out.

Do you think 2010 will be Rob Arm's year?

I think it will depend who can fix their gun faster...if the ACR can be built for $1700 and they put a 1:7 barrel on it, I would say it will recover and maybe do well...at least as well as the 556, probably better.

If Robarm will change the pin retention system, augment the barrel retention system, and go to real picatinny rails, and maybe change how the ejector is attached, then I think it will recover and maybe do well.

But if neither company makes these changes then I would say there will be a resurgence of disinterest in both platforms and if anything there will be more SCAR talk.
 
Do you think 2010 will be Rob Arm's year?

...if the ACR can be built for $1700 .

Bushmaster website said:
The Bushmaster ACR for the commercial market is available in the Basic and Enhanced configurations. The additional features for the Enhanced version include an AAC® Blackout™ NSM Flash Hider for exceptional reduction of muzzle flash; multi-functional, three-sided aluminum hand guard with integral MIL-STD 1913 accessory rail; and folding, six-position telescoping composite stock with rubber butt pad, sling attachment mounts and 2-point push button sling. Each configuration of the commercial ACR is offered in a non-reflective, black finish or Coyote Brown (30118). Suggested retail price: Basic $2,685 and Enhanced $3,061.

if the XCR-M hits the market in 2010 than it will be a very good year.
 
Didn't anyone wonder who the "we" and "I " in the original post were?
Is everyone an expert on patents/copyrights?Sufficiently to have and express an INTELLIGENT opinion on the issue?

Is it necessary to all march in lockstep and disparage the suit/lawyers/the individuals who feel aggrieved?
Does everyone have to have an opinion on day one?
We all know about opinions,right?
 
Outcomes of a legal action.

We'll see. Law. Precedents. Commerce. Public image. There's a complex mix that goes into this particular bag.



One thing is for certain. The onus to prove violations will rest on RA, and there is more than one classic defense to be had.

I'm reminded at least somewhat of SCO's 'iron clad' lawsuit against several giants, whereby SCO-Linux financially acquired rights to System-V Unix source code as used in many distributions of open-source Linux operating systems. The debates that raged make these conversations pale by comparison indeed.

Letters were sent directly to companies running 'free' software demanding outrageous royalty payments, and lawsuits were brought against big companies like IBM (who at the time had sank over a Billion dollars into Linux development). Big Blue. Reads 'deep-pockets' with a major payday.

The question of derivative works was raised, and an entire community was up in arms in controversy over the public spectacle.



In the end, experts showed that the code (while similar in function) was visibly different.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Not even close. And while I work with engineers and scientists who create unique technological products, I have little to nothing to do with patenting of those Intellectual Properties.

But I want to ask one question (very candidly) for anyone who has heard of or tried an alternative open source OS like Linux: When is the last time you heard of anyone buying or even mentioning SCO?



SCO's actions were ultimately seen by the community as grossly litigious and their only likely long term prospect for financial success. (There is more than a small amount of speculation that Microsoft and other companies invested in SCO to bolster the suit. It was all quite dramatic.). Did the company tank because this pursuit? Pure speculation. But I can tell you this. They didn't make many friends doing so.

At this point, I just don't see that RA did themselves any favors with how this was handled. To me, that seems congruent with at least some of Alex Robinson's public interactions with the broader Firearms community.




As the saying always goes on that uncomfortable letter's signature block , 'without prejudice'...

And I'll just wait and see. Whoever 'wins', I just hope that it is not the community that loses.
 
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The fact is though, that the design is sufficiently different (its ambidextrous, its ergonomically superior), and that's what makes it patentable. There is no prior invention of this device, and the fact it was granted a patent pretty much seals it.

Till Remington comes out and says "Look the M1911 pistols have been doing this for over a hundred years it was not patentable in the first place." And RA ends up just spending a ton of money on lawyers to try and pull a ARMS tactic.

Produce a defective product, claim its the owners who are at fault, and when all else fails sue everyone cause you were the one who "did it first". :rolleyes:

All they need to do is send money to the Democrats and next thing you know they'll be merging with ARMS to form one larger company to go after everyone together. :p

Dimitri
 
No one talks about SCO because SCO never had a claim to begin with. Their claim was that linux was ripped from a particular variation of unix. The fact is that the variation of unix was taken from prior art in earlier versions of unix. Linux was built on the original unix, not the one SCO had the patent on. Their claim was bunk from the beginning.

This one, however, is very different. They have had two commercial products, they have a patent on the unique arrangement (and no, the 1911 arrangement is NOTHING like this one, the ergonomics are vastly different, and its no ambidextrous). You can SEE the similarity.
 
Also, dimitri, you should be VERY careful with your comments. Its one thing to suggest that a rifle had teething problems, and another one entirely to call it defective. Such comments could be construed as defamation.
 
No one talks about SCO because SCO never had a claim to begin with. Their claim was that linux was ripped from a particular variation of unix. The fact is that the variation of unix was taken from prior art in earlier versions of unix. Linux was built on the original unix, not the one SCO had the patent on. Their claim was bunk from the beginning.

This one, however, is very different. They have had two commercial products, they have a patent on the unique arrangement (and no, the 1911 arrangement is NOTHING like this one, the ergonomics are vastly different, and its no ambidextrous). You can SEE the similarity.

Not earlier versions of Unix. No.

System V Unix code was not taken from a prior art. It deviated so radically from it that the world of Unix was ever after split apart. One school of thought evolved into BSD (BSDish), and the other System V (AT&Tish). Novell's licensing for system V Unix was a proper acquisition of the ancestral AT&T rights, and SCO's understanding was that they acquired these rights from Novell.

It theoretically provided them with ironclad ownership of System V Linux.

How iron-clad? SCO/Caldera Darl McBride launched their suit quite confidently. SCO's share values rose sharply on speculation as well as through Millions of real Dollars in cash infusions from groups as significant as the Royal Bank of Canada; and this despite no real cash flow prospects outside of their pending legal action. A miserable EBIT and a worse PE ratio.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-132306.html
Posted on ZDNet News: Oct 20, 2003 9:09:00 PM

BayStar Capital entered the open-source spotlight last week with its $50 million investment in the SCO Group, which is embroiled in legal wrangling over Linux and Unix with IBM and Red Hat. What the companies didn't say so loudly, though, is that $30 million of BayStar's investment in SCO was from the Royal Bank of Canada, according to a Thursday regulatory filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. BayStar itself invested the remaining $20 million.

BayStar invests in publicly traded companies with a mechanism called a PIPE--private investment in public equity. While Microsoft has used PIPEs in the past, a BayStar representative said Microsoft apparently hasn't ever participated in a BayStar PIPE and certainly didn't participate in the SCO investment.


There was a real groundswell of brilliant people iteratively comparing code pools from release to release. But plausible defenses became largely irrelevant because Novell successfully won a summary judgment against SCO in which they claimed that Novell had never relinquished the rights.

Novell later expressed that they agreed with the community position; essentially that although it follows System V operating concepts there is no plagiarism of code, and made their intention no to peruse any legal recourse against users of System V. They were not as magnanimous with SCO.

The court issued an order awarding Novell $2,547,817 and ruled that SCO was not authorized to enter into the 2003 agreement with Sun

The ending was... messy.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/01/sco_shares_down/
Posted in Financial News, 1st December 2006 18:59 GMT

SCO Group shares went south in a hurry during Friday's trading, as investors reacted to the company's legal misfortunes.

SCOX dropped 40 per cent to $1.20 per share, at the time of this report. That's well off a 52-week high of $5.23 and light-years away from the more than $20 per share price SCO enjoyed a couple years back. The share price collapse follows a judge's decision to uphold an earlier ruling that nixed 187 of SCO's 294 claims against IBM.

$20 a share. Clearly, not everyone thought it was a hokey case.



So what's the point?

Well, if its possible that you are wrong on the facts of a settled case then it is also possible that you are wrong on the facts of an pending case. Don't sweat it. I can't possibly know SFA regarding the validity of RA's claim as I am not privy to any real details. Nor would I claim to be.

Like everyone else, I am in the same boat.

It remains to be presented by expert witnesses from both sides how identical or different the mechanisms in question are in the RA suit.


But I do stand by what I said earlier.

1) The onus will be on Robinson Arms to prove that the patent was violated, and there is more than one way to establish a defense. It they are in the right, they deserve compensation and will likely find it.

2) Irregardless of the legal outcome, there is a lot a company figurehead can do to permanently screw up his company's reputation through repeatedly negative interactions with the user community.

In the meantime, we shall see.
 
In the end, experts showed that the code (while similar in function) was visibly different.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Not even close. And while I work with engineers and scientists who create unique technological products, I have little to nothing to do with patenting of those Intellectual Properties.
In engineering school a big deal is made about keeping a meticulous design notebook for precisely this purpose (patent challenges). The amount of documentation that can be required to defend a challenge of your patent is enormous compared to what you need to have it issued in the first place. Some may view writing down everything you do as a little strange, but it's not when IP is your bread and butter.

As for SCO, you make a good point but I think RobArm is far from being dismissed by the community as a patent troll. They do actually have engineering staff and original products, rather than a bunch of lawyers and a mailbox like some companies I could name (*cough*NTP*cough*).
 
In engineering school a big deal is made about keeping a meticulous design notebook for precisely this purpose (patent challenges). The amount of documentation that can be required to defend a challenge of your patent is enormous compared to what you need to have it issued in the first place. Some may view writing down everything you do as a little strange, but it's not when IP is your bread and butter.
I hear you there.

Just finished SRED and IRAP applications. Having detailed design notes can save you trouble on a lot of fronts and does much to document your credibility.

As for SCO, you make a good point but I think RobArm is far from being dismissed by the community as a patent troll. They do actually have engineering staff and original products, rather than a bunch of lawyers and a mailbox like some companies I could name (*cough*NTP*cough*).

I think the community REALLY wants to see great products emerge from them.

I also think that they often face a harder uphill fight for benefit of doubt from that community when their CEO goes on some really memorable chest poking rants with end users across the Internet.

However the court case goes, patent defense has little to do with long term success prospects of a business.
 
Wasn't there a movie recently about the small guy who took on the big three motor companies for HIS invention of delayed winshield wiper blades........ and WON.

If Robinson Armament feels the big guys are using their patented designs..... why not let the courts decide.
 
and no, the 1911 arrangement is NOTHING like this one, the ergonomics are vastly different, and its no ambidextrous). You can SEE the similarity.

Doesn't have to be the exact same, Remington just has to show what RA patented, is not "revolutionary" compared to other designs therefor shouldn't have a valid gotten a patent in the first place. This precedent has been set in US patent law for a while.

By the way, just took out the Remington M700 out of my gun safe, I can hold it as if I was shooting from either side, to operate the bolt release, magazine release, safety and the trigger with my index finger/thumb. Shoot Robertson Arms can sue Remington for that too now. :rolleyes:

By the so your other comment is that Robertson Arms is going to sue me too for libel now? :runaway: Guess they are really going to pull a ARMS type of business plan in that case. :p

Dimitri
 
Also, dimitri, you should be VERY careful with your comments. Its one thing to suggest that a rifle had teething problems, and another one entirely to call it defective. Such comments could be construed as defamation.

I am not much for using emoticons so I'll just say this in text: What a total eye-roller...defamation? Get real...Robarms would have to sue half the internet if calling that rifle defective was sufficient grounds for a lawsuit.

I doubt Dimitri will pull his statement but just in case: early Robarms XCRs were defective, so says I. They can sue me any time, just pm me for details on my name and address so the paperwork will be right.
 
Also, dimitri, you should be VERY careful with your comments. Its one thing to suggest that a rifle had teething problems, and another one entirely to call it defective. Such comments could be construed as defamation.

you must have a personal interest in the company or something the way you rabidly defend the xcr. ive got one and i dont take everything said about it as a personal attack.
 
Well, if its possible that you are wrong on the facts of a settled case then it is also possible that you are wrong on the facts of an pending case. Don't sweat it. I can't possibly know SFA regarding the validity of RA's claim as I am not privy to any real details. Nor would I claim to be.

Well, first of all, I'm not wrong on SCO. SCO's system V NEVER had any claim of patent infringement with linux. None. Zip. Zero. All SCO's attempts to prove otherwise failed miserably. Part of the reason was that previous incarnations of Unix proved the inspiration for Linus Torvalds, not System V. That, and the code was easily demonstrated to be different.

However, we're not talking about code here, we're talking about a very specific design. An ergonomically designed bolt release that is ambidextrous. ACR's patent on their firearm clearly shows that their system is designed identically to RA's. At the very least RA has a strong case.

And let's not be confused here: RA holds all the legal leverage.

They have a prima facie case, if they wanted to, they could go to court tomorrow and file for injunctive relief, preventing the sale of the ACR to anyone (including the military). Because we're only talking about two infringers, that threat is credible and real.

SCO could not possibly have stopped linux by injunction. There were too many targets. Too many versions, and they had no prima facie case (for that would have required discovery).

RA is dealing with two infringers, one of whom is in the running for a MAJOR military contract, and the mere threat of a suit could scuttle their selection for that contract. It is thus in remington's interest to dispose of the suit quickly and quietly. I'm sure that is what will happen.
 
Paul is passionate about the XCR. He's a fan, and I mean that in the most earnest sense.

He's also one of the formally trained members on this board in law. Bright guy, and we're fortunate to have him here. I just disagree with his contentions in this case as none of us are privy to the facts of the case, let alone aware of what hole cards are being carried on each side of it.

As for Dimitri and the notion of suing the little guy for defamation, sometimes a company can try to lawyer-#### someone as an object lesson. But there are no deep pockets, and it usually backfires with the very subscriber community it was intended to teach a lesson to.
 
As for the defamation comment, I highly doubt it would be pursued, but take it as generally good advice. In Barrick Gold Corp. v. Lopehandia the court heard a case in which a person with an axe to grind defamed a corporation on an online message board. The court awarded $125 000.00 in damages, plus the costs of bringing the suit, which were probably in the order of another $100 000. This was a Canadian case, and the judgement was upheld at the Ontario Court of Appeal.

I doubt RA would ever consider such a move, nor would most companies, but you should be careful with your words.

I don't have any personal interest in the company, I do own an XCR though, and am very happy with it. My comment was mainly the result of having recently presented a paper on internet libel, and having read Lopehandia.
 
Well, first of all, I'm not wrong on SCO. SCO's system V NEVER had any claim of patent infringement with linux. None. Zip. Zero. All SCO's attempts to prove otherwise failed miserably. Part of the reason was that previous incarnations of Unix proved the inspiration for Linus Torvalds, not System V. That, and the code was easily demonstrated to be different.

Actually, you're a long way off. But that's understandable because you are in law school, and not cutting your teeth as an OS architect.

And that is the crux. You can't make a really good expert argument unless you are an expert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_V

Unix System V, commonly abbreviated SysV (and usually pronounced — though rarely written — as "System 5"), is one of the first versions of the Unix operating system. It was originally developed by American Telephone & Telegraph (AT&T) and first released in 1983. Four major versions of System V were released, termed Releases 1, 2, 3 and 4. System V Release 4, or SVR4, was commercially the most successful version, being the result of an effort, marketed as Unix System Unification, which solicited the collaboration of the major Unix vendors. It was the source of several commercial common Unix features.

AT&T. The ancestral developer of System V Unix. As in, the rights of which obtained by Novell. SCO claimed these rights through their APA with Novell .


Your notion about the a previous art (Bell Labs / Dennis Ritchie/Ken Thompson ) are correct from the altruistic perspective of an argument that was going to be used, where the principles of Unix extend back much further than SCO ever claimed. This would refer to a time where those exposed to such concepts were all almost exclusively attendees of UC Berkeley.

And if RedHat and IBM violated SCO intellectual properties then SCO was by the same measure violating even earlier intellectual properties. While correct as an assessment of lineage, it was never settled in court to the best of my knowledge.

That argument became irrelevant once SCO's claim to ownership of the rights was turned down.


Not a bad historical synopsis here:
http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.html



*Note: Not trying to turn this place into Slashdot. Don't read further unless you want to know particulars


Here's what Richard Stallman had to say about it.

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=6

Here is what Richard Stallman said about the SCO claims in a very interesting series of articles on MozillaQuest Magazine, where he offers a simple fix -- just show the code SCO thinks is copied, and it'll be taken out and replaced:

"If any AT&T-copyrighted code was copied into GNU, this occurred despite our continued efforts to prevent such copying. Our intention was to write code from scratch, and we have surely done so 99% of the time or more. If SCO can find code that was copied and is not fair use, they merely have to show it to us. We will take out the AT&T code and replace it."

And here is what he said regarding FSF policy for programmers regarding Unix source code:

"We made deliberate efforts to prevent copying of any Unix source code into the GNU system. We have had written recommendations for GNU developers since the 80s, telling them not to even look at Unix source code while writing GNU programs. I don't know whether the developers of Linux, the kernel, have stated such policies, but at least the GNU part of GNU/Linux should be safe."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO-Linux_controversies

At the beginning of 2003, SCO claimed that there had been "misappropriation of its UNIX System V code into Linux". However, the company refused to identify the specific segments of code, claiming that it was a secret which they would reveal only to the court. They did say that the code could be found in the SMP, RCU and a few other parts of the Linux kernel.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group

Dr. Randall Davis (MIT) files his second declaration on behalf of IBM. In it, he describes his examination of SCO's claims of infringement, using both the "comparitor" and "SIM" tools. He concluded that, "Despite an extensive review, I could find no source code in any of the IBM Code [including AIX, Dynix, Linux, or JFS] that incorporates any portion of the source code contained in the Unix System V Code or is in any other manner similar to such source code. Accordingly, the IBM Code cannot be said, in my opinion, to be a modification or a derivative work based on Unix System V Code." [5]
 
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