.308 hmmm,

[shrike]

True Canadaman30,
very true, it will undoubtedly kill the moose or elk or bear if put in the right spot.
However the object is to kill AND retrieve the animal.
To have it run off to die far in the bush for wolf or coyote bait is not what you have in mind either right?
Even our cup and core soft bullets will not expand at 1300-1500 fps.
They will act like a full metal jacket.
For a RAPID kill you need a deep enough wound channel to penetrate into the vitals and enough expansion to make the wound channel large enough in diameter to facilitate maximum tissue/nerve and blood vessel destruction.
The only other way for a rapid kill is to break large shoulder bones or the skull/spine.
For the shoulder bones you again needd mass AND velocity in a .30 cal. bullet.
In shots over 150 yards the spine is not the targets to hold for i.m.o.
For headshots I need a quiet target from a good rest no further then 100 yards to play it safe. We are talking here field positions, like sitting possibly in wind and cold, not bench rest shooting in mid summer from comfie benches with a bench master to rest your rifle. If it is cold and windy I have to cut down in the above distances, even when shooting from crossed Stony Point sticks.

Anyway this is strictly my opinion.

 

[DATAM]

I never take long shots on game. 200 yards or less is my prefered distance for hunting.

 

[Camp Cook]

300 yards is my normal limit but I do have two rifle/cartridge combo's a 300RUM & 375RUM that if conditions were perfect I would not hesitate to shoot 500 yards @ big game.

 

[jethunter]

If using a .308 that you are competent with, at what range would you take a moose.

How long is a piece of string? The calibre of the rifle is less important than the shooter.

Energy wise,the .308 is capable of taking a moose at twice that distance. Not many of us are that capable, unfortunately. Energy is only one of the variables in the long range hunting scenario, and not even the most important one for most rifles, most of the time.

Most people can't judge accurately past 100 yards consistantly without some kind of mechanical help. I'd guess that most of us would screw up the range estimation on that 400 yard moose and at that point it doesn't matter whether you're using a 300 mag or a 30-30.

In reality, digging through the BS and hype -a 300winmag has about a 10%-15% advantage in max point blank range over a .308, after which the shooter needs accurate ranging and the ballistics of his rifle, or he will miss.

 

[voere270]

Lots of opinions on here, but a competent shooter can take a shot and kill a moose at that range.

Of course by saying "competent", we are implying that both the shooter and the conditions are good for a kill shot at that range. An open shot at 400 yards with the proper ammo and proper conditions can be taken with the expectation to drop the animal.

By going to a higher powered rifle (like the .300 WM or a 7mm RM or the like) you end up with a greater percentage of success of dropping the animal under less than ideal circumstances. It's an insurance policy.

Many hunters don't feel comfortable taking a shot at 400 yards with a .308 and that's fine for them, but the numbers don't lie.

 

[sillymike]

Ability of the cartridge or the shooter behind it...

Exactly!

Most guy I know are not capable of consistently putting their first shot within a 9" paper plate at 300M shooting from a bench... I fail to see how they could make a clean kill in the field at that distance.

 

[CV32]

I like to shoot em 50 yards or less from the truck, because those suckers are heavy, but 400 yd with a .308 is not a fantasy shot for moose.

 

[Camp Cook]

I see that the top retained ft lbs of energy for your 308 Win is only 1600 @ 400 yards and the optimum game weight is rated at only 400lbs.

If anything were to go wrong with the shot or the animal moved resulting in a front shoulder/leg bone being hit the results would be a wounded animal.

Increase that ft lbs of energy with the same weight bullet in a 300 Win Mag and your retained energy @ 400 yards would still be over 2150 ft lbs giving it the power to break the bone and giving the added insurance of cleanly killing the animal if things go wrong optimum game weight increases to 585 lbs.

or you could go to a 300RUM with .588 BC 200gr Accubonds @ 3250fps resulting in a 400 yard energy rating of 3015 ft lbs thats over 1 1/2 tons of hitting power and almost double of the 308 Win and with a 250 yard sight in you will only be 2.3" high @ 150 yards 11" low at 400 yards and the optimum game animal weight jumps to 1065 lbs.

I personally have absolutely no interest in a 308 for hunting game that is bigger than a deer and you wouldn't catch me packing one when I am after moose/elk or in grizzly country.

 

[Al Bear]

You guys must be smokin' something. My books say 2100 ft/lbs of energy for a clean kill on a moose. You won't get that kind of energy much beyond 200 yds with a .308. Sure, many have dropped a moose with a .308 beyond that ....but my guess is many have lost/wounded one too (thinking they missed). If you want a clean kill, you'll take the time to find out your gun's limits. If you just want to pop a round, go to the range.

 

[sealhunter]

You guys must be smokin' something. My books say 2100 ft/lbs of energy for a clean kill on a moose. You won't get that kind of energy much beyond 200 yds with a .308. Sure, many have dropped a moose with a .308 beyond that ....but my guess is many have lost/wounded one too (thinking they missed). If you want a clean kill, you'll take the time to find out your gun's limits. If you just want to pop a round, go to the range.

I quite often don't get that at the muzzle with my gun..

Newsflash: Moose shot with a 30/30 Winchester (I guess one or two have been shot with it over the years) were not clean kills. Not even enough ft/lbs at the muzzle..

Add the 45/70 in as well...
.303 Brit,..only good to 100yrds?

wonderful stuff..

 

[voere270]

CC/Al Bear: Perhaps my response wasn't completely clear....

By saying "competent", we are implying that both the shooter and the conditions are good for a kill shot at that range. An open shot at 400 yards with the proper ammo and proper conditions can be taken with the expectation to drop the animal. Just because you're unwilling to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

I think perhaps you didn't understand me when I say "competent". It also means that if the conditions are not good for a shot at this range, ie: high wind, bad visibility, moving animal etc. a shot wouldn't be taken by a "competent" hunter.

If your point is to merely say that all hunters that take shots at ranges over 200 yards with anything other than a .500 Remchester Super Duper Ultra Bigger Gun Than My Neighbours Magnum then you've made your point. Of course, the BIG-GUN (TM) would have dropped _EVERY SINGLE_ moose it's ever been pointed at and not wounded any.

A rifle is just a tool and without a "competent" operator, it's capable of wounding, maiming etc. no matter what caliber or projectile weight.

The Egyptians didn't need power tools to build the pyramids, why do we need bigger tools to do the same job a smaller tool can when in the hands of a craftsman?

I think I've said enough here, but I'm sure there will be more to follow.

 

[Camp Cook]

Does competent mean being able to judge if the animal will move or not or does that include being able to will it to not move...

 

[voere270]

Does competent mean being able to judge if the animal will move or not or does that include being able to will it to not move...

I'd "judge" that you're using the following definition of judge:

Webster's Dictionary:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/judge

-Verb
11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.

If I've "judged" correctly here, then yes. Let's keep in mind we're talking about a moose and not a deer or the fabled Jackalope...

As for willing the moose to not move I'm definitely not that talented. But if you're telling me that you've figured out how to do this, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Camp Cook]

I'd "judge" that you're using the following definition of judge:

Webster's Dictionary:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/judge

-Verb
11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.

If I've "judged" correctly here, then yes. Let's keep in mind we're talking about a moose and not a deer or the fabled Jackalope...

As for willing the moose to not move I'm definitely not that talented. But if you're telling me that you've figured out how to do this, I'd love to hear about it.

Me neither... you will have noticed that I support using more gun...

 

[CV32]

Me neither... you will have noticed that I support using more gun...

Not even that 'bigger gun' will remove all the variables. It might reduce the margin of error, but so will perhaps a premium bullet, a scope with better clarity, or a decent recoil pad. We could go on and on about what is 'better' (and usually do, ad nauseum, heh), but it doesn't change the dynamics. Just about any well known big game caliber in the hands of a competent hunter is capable of reliably killing moose at the ranges stated.

But if there are reliable statistics out there about how the .300RUM wounds less moose than the .308, I'd love to hear about them. Seriously, I would. Perhaps it would put an end to these silly arguments. On second thought, no it wouldn't. (And what would be the fun in that?)

 

[Camp Cook]

I'm thinking your missing what I am saying...

I'll try and make it clearer if your shot is off with a premium bullet in either the 308 Win or 300RUM and you hit a moose in the front leg bone @ 400 yards the odds are that the 308 Win will not break the bone whereas when you use a cartridge that has almost twice the ft lbs of energy @ the same distance it is going to break that bone and penetrate resulting in a more humane kill.

I have all levels of rifle/cartridge combo's if I was to hunt for moose with a 308 I would keep my shots within 300 yards unless everything was perfect but then again I will not be there with only a 308 it will be either a 300RUM or 375RUM and yes they will be loaded with premium bullets.

Ok... I'll admit it... I am planning on hunting moose this fall with my 21" barreled T/C Contender carbine in 375JDJ = 260gr Accubonds @ 2300fps and it is still doing 1800fps and has over 1900ft lbs of retained energy and is rated for an optimum game animal weight of 608lbs @ 300 yards...

 

[sealhunter]

More gun to make up for not hitting the vitals...hmm..

 

[sealhunter]

After 8000 views and a few hundred replies, Iguess we have learned nothing. Or at least you nay sayers haven't!

 

[Camp Cook]

you mean I am the only guy bored out of his mind today?

 

[Lazy Ike]

If hot air was fatal, you fella's could sell your guns and fill your freezers.