Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan
- Thread starter rdelliott
- Start date
modern hollowpoints donot explode.... they are controlled expansion.... PLUS did you not see the data above that says the 5.56 FMJ fragments on impact ?? to me that would be more exploding then a controlled expansion round....
I can't argue with you, the 5.56 can be a nasty little round at the right distance.
I only posted the rules as they were written. and it says easly expand or flaten and regardless if it is controled or not that is exactly what a holow-point is designed do.
Last edited:
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Clearer?
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
blasphemy ! i say
knowing the strengths and limitations of your equipment as well as experience is no match for buying something new and reinventing the wheel every 10 years !
riflery and small arms experience is something that you can read about in soldier of fortune or on the way over there.
........funny as a kid i thought only the lone ranger had silver bullets
Next you will be saying something stupid like marksmanship is a perishable skill that needs quality training and practice to develop and maintain. Ammo is cheap, quality coaching is invaluable.
themarauder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Just north of Toronto, thankfully.
I must be tired, I thought that said "Would you prefer to take a tank to battle as a general purpose cartridge..." Yes. Yes I would.
Interesting thread guys, lots of good info I hadn't seen yet. CGN always educates and amuses.
I put the whole quote in but may be it was missed so I will hilight the important parts
I guess this is why Nato forces use FMJ's and not the more devistating hollow-points
Hello gents.
There's a new cartridge being worked on recently by the guy that designed the 6.8Spc. The 7x46mm UIAC.
7mm 130gr bullet, with a BC of .411, pushing 2650fps from 16" barrel.
The case is basicaly the 7.62x45mm Czech, necked down to 7mm, or 7.62x39 Russian extended to 46mm and necked down to 7mm.
When the guy designed the 6.8Spc. he also started working on a cartridge for both rifles and MG's, but without the limits imposed by the Ar15. He just released the case and chamber specs two weeks ago. Looks interesting:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19936
http://cid-4e0b456cafea6a74.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/4E0B456CAFEA6A74!147
There's a new cartridge being worked on recently by the guy that designed the 6.8Spc. The 7x46mm UIAC.
7mm 130gr bullet, with a BC of .411, pushing 2650fps from 16" barrel.
The case is basicaly the 7.62x45mm Czech, necked down to 7mm, or 7.62x39 Russian extended to 46mm and necked down to 7mm.
When the guy designed the 6.8Spc. he also started working on a cartridge for both rifles and MG's, but without the limits imposed by the Ar15. He just released the case and chamber specs two weeks ago. Looks interesting:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19936
http://cid-4e0b456cafea6a74.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/.res/4E0B456CAFEA6A74!147
- Location
- land of f-cktards
oh gawd now your going rtfo
the reason why the CF has those elcan scopes so you don't have to practice as much. dude don't you know the more your on a range the more likely it is someone is going to get shot !(your sarcasm meter should be going off but i have met many who seem to think that way)
no they are not just certain applications.
Last edited:
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Ah yes, but where are the quality coaches???
Is a pre-deployment PWT shoot designed to get a check in the box, or is it a build-up to improve the individual capabilities of the troops?
I think it's more the former than the latter, and while there are quality coaches out there, when have any of us been asked to help? And how many of us, when offering help, have been told that what we learned on a rifle team is only good for the range, and doesn't have any meaning in an operational environment.
I have been told of a QM who was sent to man the gate as a sentry during a unit range day, because, A, he obviously didn't need to shoot it, and B, because his superiors didn't want any of the rifle team junk that he'd learned infecting the rest of the troops.
On the other hand, I know of a rifle team that fielded a call from a unit in Gagetown with a request to qualify someone on short notice (flying over to A-stan that weekend) so the person came to Halifax and shot PWT here.
I know lots of coaches around....but when will they ask for help?
NS
- Location
- currently downrange
...
Last edited:
Ah yes, but where are the quality coaches???
Is a pre-deployment PWT shoot designed to get a check in the box, or is it a build-up to improve the individual capabilities of the troops?
I think it's more the former than the latter, and while there are quality coaches out there, when have any of us been asked to help? And how many of us, when offering help, have been told that what we learned on a rifle team is only good for the range, and doesn't have any meaning in an operational environment.
I have been told of a QM who was sent to man the gate as a sentry during a unit range day, because, A, he obviously didn't need to shoot it, and B, because his superiors didn't want any of the rifle team junk that he'd learned infecting the rest of the troops.
On the other hand, I know of a rifle team that fielded a call from a unit in Gagetown with a request to qualify someone on short notice (flying over to A-stan that weekend) so the person came to Halifax and shot PWT here.
I know lots of coaches around....but when will they ask for help?
NS
Flat range training has been less and less every year, and IMHO it is the right move, the USMC is learning this lesson as well. While being great for teaching new shooters (yes this is still being done at unit level) and as a standard test for proving competence a further levels it offers none of the qualities needed during dynamic operations. The ability to shoot,move and communicate is much more vital than being able to shoot groupings. there is a new saying " #### the group, make the kill" that is making the rounds in my unit and I agree.
Hopefully the flat range will soon be a relic of the past with the new initiative coming down the pipe from DAT, new reactive targets, better range layouts, and realistic training programs are all coming within the next 5 years.
CFSAC and other competitions are too steeped in tradition and do not offer anything new except for the newest tricks as teams attempt to out-game each other, none of which serves any place on the battlefield. With luck the Service Rifle matches will evolve to include more movement and less prone shooting.
- Location
- currently downrange
Agreed,
This years CFSAC may not be perfect but I feel a step in the right direction. Too many years of people thinking that flat range excellence is the end of marksmanship training necessary to fight.
I do not think we need any less flat range training but we do need more frequent continuation training involving shooting, moving, and communicating and using the support weapons available to you. AKA live field firing training from Pairs to Battle Group. The war is over for us in less than 5 years, I hope big moves come sooner than later.
The blazer and flannels crowd that may disagree have likely done little real fighting and little meaningful live fire training past the individual level.
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
A cute saying, but I'm sure you would agree that in practice it isn't quite that simplistic. Your group needs to centered and small enough to ensure you get that kill (I know you know this), if not all you are doing is adding noise to the equation.
Sure,, 1" groups at 100m aren't needed,, a 10" group would be just fine, then move on. However, if the best our guys can do is to get a 10" group at 100m from the prone, then they would just be wasting ammo shooting out to 300m.
The fundamentals don't change, and it is competitions like CFSAC that test those fundamentals in a challenging and safe environment. CFSAC is evolving, just like the CFOSP evolves, doctrine evolves, and so on. CFSAC, AFSAM, AASAM and CENTSAM isn't like is was even 5 years ago. It's challenging and it's tough, and it's fun. It may also be humbling to those who think they have what it takes run with the top guys.
As for gaming, that is part of being a soldier. Gaming means critical thinking, observation and coming up with a plan, testing, rehearsal, and after action reviews, making sure your equipment is in top notch condition: pushing the envelope some would say. When you do this in competitions, some will put you down and say its "gaming". Most who have this view don't take the competition that seriously to begin with, and this helps them justify their poor showing.
This "gaming" is just what we do when on the job and in battle. That's what being a professional is all about.
There need to be a balance.
I'd like to see the KD range stuff as the crawl part, and transitioning into the UKD as the walk.
Biggest problems we have in AF and IQ, is hitting the enemy as the troops have a terrible time estimating range.
However I agree with Shelldrake in the fact the troops need to be able to shoot accurately.
We used to shoot IRON sights FN and C7 to 5 and 600m - KD,
Once the troops are getting good hits on the KD, there needs to a LOT of UKD training, 360 degree ranges etc.
I'd like to see the KD range stuff as the crawl part, and transitioning into the UKD as the walk.
Biggest problems we have in AF and IQ, is hitting the enemy as the troops have a terrible time estimating range.
However I agree with Shelldrake in the fact the troops need to be able to shoot accurately.
We used to shoot IRON sights FN and C7 to 5 and 600m - KD,
Once the troops are getting good hits on the KD, there needs to a LOT of UKD training, 360 degree ranges etc.
- Location
- land of f-cktards
Navy Shooter
I am not going to respond as I know what I think will cause a Sh!tstorm.
Reaper
the new COF for CFSAC I think you will agree is a step in the right direction, very little belly shooting in those matches.
I also agree with Shelldrake ref the fundamentals, I think people have the misconception there is a be all end all solution and there is not, I think many have forgot (present company excluded) that part of being a professional soldier is a proficiency with your small arms and that takes time.
Tim, your elcan gives you a crude range I don't mean to patronize, but you would be surprised how many don't know that, or how much info can be gained from your reticule.
I am not going to respond as I know what I think will cause a Sh!tstorm.
Reaper
the new COF for CFSAC I think you will agree is a step in the right direction, very little belly shooting in those matches.
I also agree with Shelldrake ref the fundamentals, I think people have the misconception there is a be all end all solution and there is not, I think many have forgot (present company excluded) that part of being a professional soldier is a proficiency with your small arms and that takes time.
Tim, your elcan gives you a crude range I don't mean to patronize, but you would be surprised how many don't know that, or how much info can be gained from your reticule.
S&L - the reticle on the C79 and the ACOG's are fine within thier design idea. If the tgt is the avergae size North American standing and facing forward they work fine...
Problem being when the target is not.
Commercial LRF's usually are not very rugged, and get good results only from reflective targets beyond half of their advertsied range.
The question comes out into how to interate the LRF into a weapon module that will display the range to a clip on to the daysight - or a mini-HUD in the day sight.
The solution is a Smart Weapon/Smart Sight combo -- its being worked on, however the biggest lesson learned was that the moving reticle was not the way to go.
Something similar to the Horus H27 reticle in conjunction to range and windage feedback in a portion of the scope where the user can see it but not distract from engagements.
Problem being when the target is not.
Commercial LRF's usually are not very rugged, and get good results only from reflective targets beyond half of their advertsied range.
The question comes out into how to interate the LRF into a weapon module that will display the range to a clip on to the daysight - or a mini-HUD in the day sight.
The solution is a Smart Weapon/Smart Sight combo -- its being worked on, however the biggest lesson learned was that the moving reticle was not the way to go.
Something similar to the Horus H27 reticle in conjunction to range and windage feedback in a portion of the scope where the user can see it but not distract from engagements.
