500S&W antique double barrel pistol.

starpuss

starpuss

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Ok long story short. I am working on a custom antique double barrel 500 S&W Magnum pistol. For “bear defense”. What do you think the fps would be for a BLACK powder load? Say 350 grain bullet? Also it will have a 6” barrel.

also i am going to cut the case down from 1.6" to 1" or maybe 1.2" case

The gun I am starting with is a 455 cal. And I am tossing out the barrels and going to custom make a set out of SS for it.

I am going to send in the frame of the gun to my gun smith to be checked over and re heat treated.

What do you think of this idea? Is it nutz>? I don’t think that a 500s&w will blow the frame apart if I load it with black powder. Or real light smokeless rd’s. .

“ this is some info I got off Google for light loads smokeless.”

325 grain LFP (lead flat point) (Cowboy load)
Trail Boss 12.0 gr. 948 FPS
Trail Boss 15.0 gr. 1,044
330 grain Lead Round Nose, plain base (plinker bullet)
Trail Boss 9.0 gr. 843 Hi=868, Lo=817, ES=51 (very mild shooting)
Trail Boss 10.0 gr. 900 Hi=906, Lo=892, ES=13 (very consistent)
Trail Boss 11.0 gr. 952 Hi=963, Lo=944, ES=19
Trail Boss 12.0 gr. 1,006 Hi=1,014 Lo=995, ES=19 (Max Load)
440 grain lead cast Cowboy loads
Trail Boss 7.0 gr. 643 FPS minimum (This is VERY light, be careful)
Trail Boss 10.0 gr. 799 FPS MAXIMUM

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I got the gun off GB, I don’t have it yet. So I can’t get better pic’s then this.
I was talking to my gun smith he told me he can heat treat it to 30?? If I remember right.

I was looking for a gun like this for well over 2 year. It looks to me like one hell of a strong frame. So I think it will be fine.



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What happens if a Factory smokeless hot load ends up in the gun way down the Road ?

I have a single shot Remington 1871 Pistol in 50 70 but it wont chamber just any 50 70 its got to have the bullet pressed in flush with the case mouth or it wont chamber.
I use a 50 Cal Round ball.
I would have your gun set up so a factory 500 S&W could not be chambered by accident.


What kinda heat treatment are you thinking of haveing done to and Iron Antique Frame ?

Lets see a picture of your frame thats gona take the Abuse :)

I also had a single shot 45 70 pistol as well but my stuff was in Ex condition and strong design to start with.
Some of them SXS 455s had pretty week light weight frames eh.
Is it a rolling block type action?
 
Why not chamber it for a shortened 50 Alaskan case? Make it the same length as a 50-95 Winchester case - those TrailBoss loads look very similar to 50-95 volumes and velocities anyway. And the risk of someone throwing in a factory load and going by the nickname "Stumpy" for the rest of their lives is mitigated.
 
i put some pic's and more info in first post.

i want to keep it a 500s&w i like the name lol..


also this is the info from the aution i got it from

A VERY UNUSUAL DESIGN: This is a neat old Belgian 2-barrel horse or boot pistol chambered for the .450 Revolver or Adams cartridge. It saw some action in the Wild South (we found it in Uruguay). It was made by the Theate-Freres house in Liege, Belgium – gun manufacturers which turned out quality pieces from 1862 on. You can see several guns made by the Theate firm on the Belgian “littlegun” site littlegun.be including one almost exactly like this, except that it’s barrels are shorter. This pistol has a quite unusual design that allows it to be narrower than most 2-barreled pistols; only a thin metal plate separates the two side-actions. This way the two actions share pins and connection points for all the internal parts – in some ways this operates like the older flintlock or percussion pistol, except that the two “side-locks” are joined in the middle and are invisible because they are under the grips. Both actions work as they should and the barrels both have good rifling with minor pitting throughout the bores. There is no original finish on the gun, and there are some areas of surface roughness as well as some spots of minor surface pitting – especially on the barrels. The pistol has original factory engraving on the action as well as on top of the barrels. The original walnut grips are in good shape, retaining their carved pattern, except that the right grip has a break that has been repaired (at the level of the escutcheon). The gun carries both the mark of the Theate Freres Company as well as that of Gilon. It doesn’t identify which Gilon had a hand in the making of the gun, but it was almost certainly manufactured “officially” by the Theate Freres company (it has the TF mark in a cartouche). On the bottom of the barrels the gun is stamped with the post-1893 Liege proof. This was the best proof in Europe in the 19th century; each chamber had to be proofed or proved by firing a double load 4 times. No junk got by that proof. That is why we will shoot some Belgian antique guns, but not others made in Europe in the 19th century (we don’t want to ruin a good gun, and even more, we don’t want to lose a hand or some other body part). The barrels measure 6-3/8 inches (162mm), and the gun’s overall length is 10-5/8 inches (271MM). For size comparison we have shown this pistol with a Smith & Wesson 1st Model DA Revolver in 44 Russian. Neither the S&W nor the cartridges shown are for sale with this auction.
After a question from a collector, the gunsmith half of the RDY brothers took a picture of the firing pins (see below, last photo), and made the following comments: "The firing pins on this old gun are great, they are bushed and removable, a nice touch... The action is also very tight. None of the screws are stripped."
Click to expand...


Also my gun smith wants to tig weld on a 3mm plate steel "t" shape plate onto the frame to "beef" it up a little. And it would be used to mount the sights. Do you think this is a good idea? From talking to him this is what I think he wants to do. Also I am also going to it dura cote it flat black and make some customs grips for it.

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Here's a crazy idea, if you are going to make new barrels for it, why not make them with a breech in each so the barrels will contain all the force of the cartridge. This way the frame does not have to be altered in any way and you can shoot any safe load of smokeless for which the barrels are designed.

I'll work up a photo shop pic of what I'm thinking of...
 
john@ said:
Here's a crazy idea, if you are going to make new barrels for it, why not make them with a breech in each so the barrels will contain all the force of the cartridge. This way the frame does not have to be altered in any way and you can shoot any safe load of smokeless for which the barrels are designed.

I'll work up a photo shop pic of what I'm thinking of...
Click to expand...


that would be cool , post pic's of your idea and ill show them to my gun smith to see what he thinks
 
john@ said:
Here's a crazy idea, if you are going to make new barrels for it, why not make them with a breech in each so the barrels will contain all the force of the cartridge. This way the frame does not have to be altered in any way and you can shoot any safe load of smokeless for which the barrels are designed.

I'll work up a photo shop pic of what I'm thinking of...
Click to expand...

Interesting.... How would that work? Threads?
 
yeah It would be a ##### to reload, but I was thinking of threading it. The dotted lines are the threads. There would be a pass through for the firing pin, and probably you would not need the breech plug to be as thick as I drew it.

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Before you continue on this project, one should intimately know the metalurgy and strength of this antique firearm design.
Read this and re-evaluate your math buddy.

455 Revolver Mk II, factory load: 262 grain bullet, 700 fps; Muzzle energy of 285 ft pounds

50-70: Factory loads gave a 450 grain bullet a MV of 1260 fps and ME of 1488 ft. lbs. A 425 grain bullet was driven at a MV of 1275 fps with ME of 1535 ft lbs

Just for the heck of it, I checked the weakest 50-90 load data: 365 cast bullet, velocity of 1652 fps, muzzle energy of 2210 ft pounds

500 S&W case length 1.6 inches.
50-70 case length 1.75 inches.

No offence intended starpuss, but I would find it hard to believe, that any right-minded gunsmith would even consider this project.
 
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john@ said:
yeah It would be a ##### to reload, but I was thinking of threading it. The dotted lines are the threads. There would be a pass through for the firing pin, and probably you would not need the breech plug to be as thick as I drew it.

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Click to expand...

I think that could work.... I would still worry about the old frame but at least you wouldn't get a face full of metal.
 
Skull and crossbones

:eek: First off, the frame on that thing is most likely iron. You don't heat treat iron, you can only caseharden it. No matter what you do to the barrels, the frame will still take some of the strain. Even now, I am working on a H&R 10ga. shotgun that has gone off the face. The barrel is fine, but the hinge is worn out. Same basic idea as your gun, just bigger and made of modern steel. If you insist on doing this, maybe you could consider a smaller calibre. .45 Colt is out, obviously, but maybe .45 S&W? Seriously, they can yak about the proofhouse all they want, but your .500 loads will most likely be close to what the proof loads were when that gun was made. And remember, too, that proof firing was a LONG time ago!
 
also this is what the 450 adams info is, witch you can still buy brass for it.

Bullet diameter .455 in (11.6 mm)
Neck diameter .475 in (12.1 mm)
Base diameter .477 in (12.1 mm)
Rim diameter .510 in (13.0 mm)
Case length .69 in (18 mm)
Overall length 1.10 in (28 mm)
Rifling twist 1:16
Primer type boxer


Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
225 gr (14.6 g) (Kynoch black powder, ball) 650 ft/s (200 m/s) 211 ft·lbf (286 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 245 ft·lbf (332 J)
 
starpuss said:
also this is what the 450 adams info is, witch you can still buy brass for it.

Bullet diameter .455 in (11.6 mm)
Neck diameter .475 in (12.1 mm)
Base diameter .477 in (12.1 mm)
Rim diameter .510 in (13.0 mm)
Case length .69 in (18 mm)
Overall length 1.10 in (28 mm)
Rifling twist 1:16
Primer type boxer


Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
225 gr (14.6 g) (Kynoch black powder, ball) 650 ft/s (200 m/s) 211 ft·lbf (286 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 245 ft·lbf (332 J)
Click to expand...

I see your math has improved. ;)
 
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