16 ga still common enough?

Win/64 - you may wish to see this - CB finally admitting in public a desire to own a Darne and a 16ga at that! :evil: :evil:

I told you he is a closet 16 ophile. I too think the Darnes are about the coolest SxS's ever but I don't like the fact that you can't carry them over your sholder broken open.
 
My interest in the Darne isn't new. What I wouldn't do with a Darne or any other gun is turn one down simply because it was a 16 gauge. The 16 gauge isn't a deal breaker or a deal maker.

I concur.

The 16 and even 28 in their appropriate frames are "nice to have" well, ok, great to have :). However, I haven't noticed any major edge or practical differences in terms of performance in the field when stood up in line with 12 or 20ga equally proportionate game guns.
 
I bought my first 16ga SxS last year for my fiancee to use in Cowboy Action shooting. Because of he stature, she finds using a M97 pump almost impossible to use and a double 12 gauge a bit too big for her. She fits a double 16 ga perfectly for her. Unfortunately the cost is about $18 and change per box. I bought out WSS Calgary's complete stock of 1 flat of #6's last year and ordered 2 more flats through a local deal and it was expensive. This will give me enough hulls to get into shotgun reloading in the future. In researching the gauge, I understand that it represents 3% of the North American market in shotgun ammo.
 
I bought my first 16ga SxS last year for my fiancee to use in Cowboy Action shooting. Because of he stature, she finds using a M97 pump almost impossible to use and a double 12 gauge a bit too big for her. She fits a double 16 ga perfectly for her. Unfortunately the cost is about $18 and change per box. I bought out WSS Calgary's complete stock of 1 flat of #6's last year and ordered 2 more flats through a local deal and it was expensive. This will give me enough hulls to get into shotgun reloading in the future. In researching the gauge, I understand that it represents 3% of the North American market in shotgun ammo.

Asking out of curiosity, what made you not consider a 20ga Coachgun instead? Is that gauge not allowed in CAS?
 
Asking out of curiosity, what made you not consider a 20ga Coachgun instead? Is that gauge not allowed in CAS?

From the SASS Manual (January 2010 edition) (they are getting as bad as friggin IPSC!)
SHOTGUN GAUGES
• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge
and no larger the 10 gauge.
• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.
• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed
within the Buckaroo Category only.

The 16 gauge was available at a reasonable price and it fit her stature and her personal physical characteristics (short and VERY well endowed):):):):):)
 
I concur.

The 16 and even 28 in their appropriate frames are "nice to have" well, ok, great to have :). However, I haven't noticed any major edge or practical differences in terms of performance in the field when stood up in line with 12 or 20ga equally proportionate game guns.

I particularly like your use of the word "practical" in this comment, Ahsan. Because, I think this has a lot to do with many of the more animated discussions that erupt from time-to-time on this board.

For example, until I sold it a few weeks ago, I used to take a single shot 20 ga NEF Pardner youth gun into the field once in a while. For no good reason, just because it sat in the back of my safe, unused, ever since my kids grew out of it. It has a short barrel. It doesn't fit me worth a darn. I was shooting light target loads. And yet, I always got my bird, just as I would have with a more ideal fit in a better configuration.

If you've read WW Greener's "The Gun", you'll recall the extensive detail he goes into with regard to the London Gun Trials. These trials, for those who haven't yet read the book, were conducted by independent 3rd parties and went to great pains to quantify and qualify every shot fired. Each shot was rated in terms of pattern density, distribution and shot penetration. They left no doubt that the factors such as powder charge, burn rate, forcing cone config., over-bored barrels, choke constriction, wad or shot cup, and shot load, to name the more significant, made a noticeable difference.

Whether a 'noticeable' difference becomes a 'practical' difference depends on whether or not the quarry is in the bag after the shot taken. And, to some extent, whether field experience is as good a yardstick as tests under tightly controlled conditions (or the opposite question, for some).

Regardless, these threads serve a useful purpose as a medium for various opinions. There's good information for those who want to push the performance envelope as well as those who just want to have fun and not be bothered by minutiae. I confess, though, that I find it difficult to sit idly by while 16 ga and .303 are declared obsolete.
 
I confess, though, that I find it difficult to sit idly by while 16 ga and .303 are declared obsolete.
I don't think the is 16 obsolete. The 16 along with the 28 and 10 gauge would be reasonably considered niche gauges. Each has its adherents but with the introduction of magnum cartridges in the 12, 20 and to a lesser extent the .410 there are not quite the same advantages to the others as there once were.
 
I don't think the is 16 obsolete. The 16 along with the 28 and 10 gauge would be reasonably considered niche gauges. Each has its adherents but with the introduction of magnum cartridges in the 12, 20 and to a lesser extent the .410 there are not quite the same advantages to the others as there once were.

You're right, to the extent that the 'noticeable' or 'practical' distinction applies. By that I mean that, while magnum shells will definitely approximate the same number of pellets in the shot string, and should actually improve shot penetration over a properly charged "square" load, they are over-driven and won't pattern as well. This is due to the 'flier' pellets that are stripped from the periphery of the shot group as it leaves the barrel. With a magnum shell, the shot string will also be longer (more strung out), producing a less effective pattern at the instant of impact on a moving target.

To the average shooter, are these 'practical' considerations? I doubt it. They wouldn't even know how to pattern the moment of impact on a moving target, or care to know. To someone not just willing, but eager, to spend thousands on a 16 gauge or 28 gauge Grulla or London best, is the difference noticeable? Certainly, it is. Very few owners of such guns would ever consider subjecting their guns (or their shoulders) to the punishment of a magnum load when they know they can get similar or better performance from a well-constructed shell.

I know that to the average shotgunner this is nothing more than snobbery and elitism. But, that's just a reflection of the value they place on the differences between the two approaches. When I first caught the shotgun bug, my primary consideration was getting one single shotgun that cost less than what I then considered a lot of money for a shotgun ($500) and could serve all purposes I had at the time.

As time passed and I got involved in clay sports and other forms of hunting, I didn't think it unreasonable to own more than one shotgun, each more suited than the others for a particular purpose (and each costing as much as my original total budget). Soon I began to realise that I enjoyed shotgun sports, both live game and clays, more than many of my previous pursuits. In fact, so much so that I began spending more on books than I originally spent on equipment. I began appreciating some shotguns for their unique or clever designs, or their historic value. Damned if I didn't start buying guns that I never even intended to shoot.

The virus within me has now progressed to the stage where I'm willing to let go of many of the guns I started out with. When I do, the money immediately gets reinvested, but now my focus is on acquiring state of the art pieces. To me, the state of the art was achieved a century ago. It has been maintained, and in minor ways improved, by today's most skilled craftsmen. But, no mass-produced guns even come close.

Magnum shells are a good improvement for mass market guns. They have not and they cannot replace or supplant an optimally charged and loaded shell in the gauges most suited to them. Until the London Gun Trials, this could all be dismissed as the ramblings of an elitist. The trials proved once and for all that, to the contrary, it is science that delivers proven results.

So, the distinction between 'practical' and 'noticeable' remains. I don't dispute anything you say, when taken from a practical point of view. By far, most shooters only care about the practical aspect. Those who appreciate 16 gauge and 28 gauge guns tend to have different motivations.
 
To the average shooter, are these 'practical' considerations? I doubt it. They wouldn't even know how to pattern the moment of impact on a moving target, or care to know. To someone not just willing, but eager, to spend thousands on a 16 gauge or 28 gauge Grulla or London best, is the difference noticeable? Certainly, it is. Very few owners of such guns would ever consider subjecting their guns (or their shoulders) to the punishment of a magnum load when they know they can get similar or better performance from a well-constructed shell.

So, the distinction between 'practical' and 'noticeable' remains. I don't dispute anything you say, when taken from a practical point of view. By far, most shooters only care about the practical aspect. Those who appreciate 16 gauge and 28 gauge guns tend to have different motivations.

SS

Well stated post in it's entirety.

My personal feelings, per the highlighted section above - is that you may agree, simultaneously, that the same (ok, similar :)) positioning will apply should a 12 or 20 Game Gun be also added to the equation.

Therefore, in terms of overall performance in the field or otherwise which, IMO, is a major reason why folks invest into such quality - how often does one effectively identify that 'noticeable' distinction when given the fact that quality ammo with supposedly "square/optimum loads" for each are used for all of those gauges? :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm fond of both gauges in question and presently own a few 28s having sold off my 16s but always looking for the right one(s) to come along :).
 
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SS

Well stated post in it's entirety.

My personal feelings, per the highlighted section above - is that you may agree, simultaneously, that the same (ok, similar :)) positioning will apply should a 12 or 20 Game Gun be also added to the equation.

Therefore, in terms of overall performance in the field or otherwise which, IMO, is a major reason why folks invest into such quality - how often does one effectively identify that 'practical' distinction when given the fact that quality ammo with supposedly "square loads" for each are used for all of those gauges? :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm fond of both gauges in question and presently own a few 28s having sold off my 16s but always looking for the right one(s) to come along :).

Practicality can never out weigh passion. Eventually passion always wins.
 
SS

Well stated post in it's entirety.

My personal feelings, per the highlighted section above - is that you may agree, simultaneously, that the same (ok, similar :)) positioning will apply should a 12 or 20 Game Gun be also added to the equation.

Therefore, in terms of overall performance in the field or otherwise which, IMO, is a major reason why folks invest into such quality - how often does one effectively identify that 'noticeable' distinction when given the fact that quality ammo with supposedly "square/optimum loads" for each are used for all of those gauges? :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm fond of both gauges in question and presently own a few 28s having sold off my 16s but always looking for the right one(s) to come along :).

And you'd be right. I do agree that 12 gauge and 20 can achieve similar performance, with the right shells. For example, when shooters get serious about trap shooting, they inevitably gravitate towards 12 gauge U/O's with adjustable stocks and long barrels. An inseparable part of their(our) kit are premium quality target loads. Without them, a competitor would be at a disadvantage. I've never seen a serious clay shooter chamber a magnum shell.

IMO, too many sportsmen cater to the misconception that more always means better. However, I don't want to leave the impression that magnum shells don't have a useful purpose. For pass shooting of high-flying waterfowl, terminal energy trumps all other considerations. My comments on the virtues of oft maligned gauges shouldn't be misconstrued to mean that they're better than 12 or 20; only that there are purposes for which they're better, as is true with the other gauge, too.
 
When I first caught the shotgun bug, my primary consideration was getting one single shotgun that cost less than what I then considered a lot of money for a shotgun ($500) and could serve all purposes I had at the time.

As time passed and I got involved in clay sports and other forms of hunting, I didn't think it unreasonable to own more than one shotgun, each more suited than the others for a particular purpose (and each costing as much as my original total budget). Soon I began to realise that I enjoyed shotgun sports, both live game and clays, more than many of my previous pursuits. In fact, so much so that I began spending more on books than I originally spent on equipment. I began appreciating some shotguns for their unique or clever designs, or their historic value. Damned if I didn't start buying guns that I never even intended to shoot.

The virus within me has now progressed to the stage where I'm willing to let go of many of the guns I started out with. When I do, the money immediately gets reinvested, but now my focus is on acquiring state of the art pieces. To me, the state of the art was achieved a century ago. It has been maintained, and in minor ways improved, by today's most skilled craftsmen. But, no mass-produced guns even come close.
No argument and our paths with slight variations here and there are quite similar. I'd wager a dram of the good stuff that our respective bookshelves are more alike than different. A quick glance at mine shows Ash, Boothroyd and Brister to the left, Wieland, Yardley and Zutz to the right with many stops in between including a well-used copy of The Gun and It's Development by Greener.

As you noted what we view as merely sharing our passion can be regarded by others as snobbery and elitism. The challenge we face is resisting the temptation to promote what we like and to provide practical information to someone who might not be as far along the path. Because we have the passion we are more inclined to not consider as obstacles finding 16 gauge components, loading 28 gauge game loads or special ordering 2-1/2" shells. These are just the price of admission to new levels of the game for us.

The passion can be a cruel mistress. Rarely have I seen it in a man with pockets deep enough to indulge it fully. What I have seen far more often are loathsome men of money who pay less attention to the details of ordering a Purdey than picking the toppings on their hamburger at Harvey's.

For those of us with fewer means the passion needs to be held in check. While in an antiquarian bookstore in London last month I was almost seduced by a first edition of The Gun and Its Development in fine condition. But at £300 I reminded myself that I had better uses for the money such as a new 28 gauge loader. :)
 
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