I've got a 577/450 Martini Henry carbine that I've been thinking about loading and shooting for too long. The time has come to get it done. I want to put in for the Alberta bison draw and would like to use this. I slugged the bore with a .490 round ball. Rolling the slug in my micrometer shows a maximum diameter of .461. The carbine is in great shape and the bore looks like new. Is there a commercial cast bullet that would work well with that diameter? I'd prefer a lighter bullet than the 400+ grain originally used. I've read Bell's Double Gun Journal article on using trail boss in the 577/450 and it sounds promising. Thanks for any advice.
Martini Henry carbine bullet and load
- Thread starter North of 58
- Start date
Loading for 577-450 Martini Henry.....
Where to start? Firstly, I have never considered that there is any difference between a carbine load and a rifle load. They are the same cartridge! I believe that some load the carbine load down a bit due to the lighter weight of the rifle but when going after bison you will need every drop that the load will produce. Bullets....contact "Ben Hunchak" who is a member here, as he had me test some bullets recently which worked great. He is in Saskatchewan. What are you using for brass? Some cases take much more powder than others. The use of Trail Boss powder has been discouraged by most of what I have read. I would suggest black powder in FG for your loads. My favourite load is 80 grains of FG black under a suitable .470" cast bullet of appropriate weight. You can try lighter bullets but I would suggest the standard bullets for M/H. If I remember correctly Ben's bullets were .468". I am assuming this is a British made rifle and not one of the copies coming out of Nepal? Is it a Mk.3? I have some M/H bullets here which I cast myself but I liked the bullets cast by Ben better. Now....buy yourself a top rated slip on butt pad to use as this is going to kick. Best of luck, Dave
PS - slugging the bore is a good idea but with seven groove rifling you have to use a formula to find true bore size. Mk. 1, 2, 3 rifles should all be .462 - .464" and the cast bullet should be larger by a couple thousands with most die hards finding .468 - .470 inch shooting the best. The Mk.4 rifles have a slightly larger bore at .466".
Where to start? Firstly, I have never considered that there is any difference between a carbine load and a rifle load. They are the same cartridge! I believe that some load the carbine load down a bit due to the lighter weight of the rifle but when going after bison you will need every drop that the load will produce. Bullets....contact "Ben Hunchak" who is a member here, as he had me test some bullets recently which worked great. He is in Saskatchewan. What are you using for brass? Some cases take much more powder than others. The use of Trail Boss powder has been discouraged by most of what I have read. I would suggest black powder in FG for your loads. My favourite load is 80 grains of FG black under a suitable .470" cast bullet of appropriate weight. You can try lighter bullets but I would suggest the standard bullets for M/H. If I remember correctly Ben's bullets were .468". I am assuming this is a British made rifle and not one of the copies coming out of Nepal? Is it a Mk.3? I have some M/H bullets here which I cast myself but I liked the bullets cast by Ben better. Now....buy yourself a top rated slip on butt pad to use as this is going to kick. Best of luck, Dave
PS - slugging the bore is a good idea but with seven groove rifling you have to use a formula to find true bore size. Mk. 1, 2, 3 rifles should all be .462 - .464" and the cast bullet should be larger by a couple thousands with most die hards finding .468 - .470 inch shooting the best. The Mk.4 rifles have a slightly larger bore at .466".
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
reloading
So..."you'll shoot your eye out" has been replaced with "you'll break your nose".... I can't wait to try this. I shoot my Martini with an adapter sleeve that works much like the chamber adapters used to fire 45/70 brass. I was considering getting some brass to fire standard loads but I don't like what I've just heard! so does 80 grains fill up the 450/577 case? It does not sound like a stiff load but i have heard that the original load did have an excessive amount of recoil. Maybe some of the experts here could shed some light and share some of there loading data...
Cheers. Steve.
So..."you'll shoot your eye out" has been replaced with "you'll break your nose".... I can't wait to try this. I shoot my Martini with an adapter sleeve that works much like the chamber adapters used to fire 45/70 brass. I was considering getting some brass to fire standard loads but I don't like what I've just heard! so does 80 grains fill up the 450/577 case? It does not sound like a stiff load but i have heard that the original load did have an excessive amount of recoil. Maybe some of the experts here could shed some light and share some of there loading data...
Cheers. Steve.
Fiil-r-up???
In my turned brass cases the 80 grains will fill to the bottom of the neck then a card wad and then the bullet. In drawn brass cases the 80 won't fill the case so either fill it up or use some carded wool over the top. Some use fillers but I don't care for them. Yes, they will kick but not like some of the modern cartridges. So, you decide....use a wimpy cartridge adapter or load a proper 577-450. Most of the folks who don't load the 577-450 are scared away by costs of brass and bullet moulds. Brass is available and is a one time purchase, as is the bullet mould. BP is the way to go. The substitutes can be problematic in pressure spikes so I stay away from them. Substitutes are also corrosive so what people perceive as extra work cleaning a black powder rifle goes for them also. They are a hoot to shoot and always gather a crowd at my range. M/H's are also a great piece of Canadian history if you can find a Mk.1 or Mk.3 which ws issued in Canada. Good luck, Dave
In my turned brass cases the 80 grains will fill to the bottom of the neck then a card wad and then the bullet. In drawn brass cases the 80 won't fill the case so either fill it up or use some carded wool over the top. Some use fillers but I don't care for them. Yes, they will kick but not like some of the modern cartridges. So, you decide....use a wimpy cartridge adapter or load a proper 577-450. Most of the folks who don't load the 577-450 are scared away by costs of brass and bullet moulds. Brass is available and is a one time purchase, as is the bullet mould. BP is the way to go. The substitutes can be problematic in pressure spikes so I stay away from them. Substitutes are also corrosive so what people perceive as extra work cleaning a black powder rifle goes for them also. They are a hoot to shoot and always gather a crowd at my range. M/H's are also a great piece of Canadian history if you can find a Mk.1 or Mk.3 which ws issued in Canada. Good luck, Dave
There's a thread here on using smokeless in the 577-450:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305866
No - you will not perish in a flash of fire and shrapnel. Many people are using smokeless and doing fine.
One of my posts makes mention of using the Lee Mold for the 475 Linebaugh. It works well and is what I'm using while I wait for a special order mold from a Group Buy on the British Militaria site.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305866
No - you will not perish in a flash of fire and shrapnel. Many people are using smokeless and doing fine.
One of my posts makes mention of using the Lee Mold for the 475 Linebaugh. It works well and is what I'm using while I wait for a special order mold from a Group Buy on the British Militaria site.
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Bullet Mould....
I see there was a group buy on the British Militaria Forum as well for a .468" bullet mould. Smokeless??? I haven't done any experimenting there as I have had great fun and success with black powder. I have done some extensive experiments though with "duplex" loadings using SR4759. These, in the Snider and the Martini Henry did work fine but I did not get too bold using 10% SR4759 and FG black powder somewhat reduced. In the short term, for someone just starting out, I would suggest BP but that's an opinion.
I see there was a group buy on the British Militaria Forum as well for a .468" bullet mould. Smokeless??? I haven't done any experimenting there as I have had great fun and success with black powder. I have done some extensive experiments though with "duplex" loadings using SR4759. These, in the Snider and the Martini Henry did work fine but I did not get too bold using 10% SR4759 and FG black powder somewhat reduced. In the short term, for someone just starting out, I would suggest BP but that's an opinion.
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
just to update my loads, I'm using 42 grns of IMR 4227 with a 405 grn .458" cast lead with gascheck. and a wad of tp to hold the powder in place.
I worked my way up from 30 grains
I worked my way up from 30 grains
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
British militaria Group Buy
Could you please supply a link? I was going to try paper patching 45 cal bullets so they would be 46(?) cal. Any comments?
Cheers. Steve
Could you please supply a link? I was going to try paper patching 45 cal bullets so they would be 46(?) cal. Any comments?
Cheers. Steve
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8760 The buy is closed and we're still waiting - these things can take a year some times, but I hear they will arrive soon.
Paper patching is an excellent alternative and allows use of commonly available bullets. Look at what "KAL Tool and Die" out of Winnipeg has for paper patch molds.
Paper patching is an excellent alternative and allows use of commonly available bullets. Look at what "KAL Tool and Die" out of Winnipeg has for paper patch molds.
Paper Patched Bullets....
They were used extensively in original M/H loadings and when done properly and all of the stars are aligned, they do a great job. The reason most guys shy away is that it is more than a bit of a trick to get them right. Again I mention Ben Hunchak at "MT Chambers Supply". He has the proper bullet moulds for paper patching and will sell you paper patched bullets to try. Before going off in all directions get an assortment from him and then decide what to do. Smokeless.....again, I never have used it as I always feared the ease with which a big case could be double loaded. BP also is historically correct. Dave
Please Note!!! I received an e-mail from Ben Hunchak stating that he does not take new customers now. I believe he is trying to free up time for his hobbies. Dave
They were used extensively in original M/H loadings and when done properly and all of the stars are aligned, they do a great job. The reason most guys shy away is that it is more than a bit of a trick to get them right. Again I mention Ben Hunchak at "MT Chambers Supply". He has the proper bullet moulds for paper patching and will sell you paper patched bullets to try. Before going off in all directions get an assortment from him and then decide what to do. Smokeless.....again, I never have used it as I always feared the ease with which a big case could be double loaded. BP also is historically correct. Dave
Please Note!!! I received an e-mail from Ben Hunchak stating that he does not take new customers now. I believe he is trying to free up time for his hobbies. Dave
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stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
Kal tool and die
Do they have a website?
Cheers. Steve.
Do they have a website?
Cheers. Steve.
Actually, that is incorrect, Dave .....
Although the Martini-Henry carbine was provisionally approved about the same time as the rifle, formal adoption and regular issue was delayed until 1877 (because of excessive recoil experienced with the rifle cartridge) - regular carbine issues began when a special carbine load had been approved ....
Skennerton's compilation of firearms-related List of Changes entries for some reason omits the date of LoC 3220 - relating to the carbine cartridge. However, LoC3215 - dealing with formal adoption of the "Carbine, B.L., Rifled, with Cleaning Rod, Martini-Henry (Mark I)" - is dated 24 September 1877. The recoil problem is merely hinted at in the wording of LoC 3215, which includes the following:
Ammunition of a special pattern (L.o.C. 3220) is intended to be used with the carbine, but the barrel of the latter is so chambered that the rifle ammunition may be fired from it, if necessary. [Emphasis added by me ....]
(On the other hand, it is true that there was never an official carbine load in .577 Snider ......)
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
Alternate supply
I contacted Ben Hunchak and he is getting out of the business so is there someone else?
Steve.
I contacted Ben Hunchak and he is getting out of the business so is there someone else?
Steve.
Further to my post concerning the original .577/.450 carbine load, here are a couple of images which I forgot I had uploaded to my Photobucket album -
They show the standard British military packet of cartridges - musket and rifle ammunition was issued in such ten-round bundles from about the mid-1700's until the switch-over to charger-loading for the Lee-Enfield in 1903. I located these images in my album when browsing for suitable pictures to illustrate why there is so much paper litter in front of the firing point in this period photograph of competitive rifle shooting at the Connaught Range in Ottawa .....)
They show the standard British military packet of cartridges - musket and rifle ammunition was issued in such ten-round bundles from about the mid-1700's until the switch-over to charger-loading for the Lee-Enfield in 1903. I located these images in my album when browsing for suitable pictures to illustrate why there is so much paper litter in front of the firing point in this period photograph of competitive rifle shooting at the Connaught Range in Ottawa .....)
Yup - right here.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Winnipeg+Kal+tool+and+die
Couldn't resist
I'm not in the business of selling bullets, but I'd be happy to send you a few of those sized to 0.466" to try. When I get the special order mold, I'll do the same - it's possible that that mold might become a standard listing.
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