Suggested loading for 8mm Mauser w/ IMR 4198 ?

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Hey all,

I am about to leave the collector world and enter the hand loading world and I am seeking some assistance for hand loading 8mm Mauser. I plan on using 170gr 8mm Mauser bullets with IMR 4198 powder. I went to the Hodgdon reloading data center but my powder is not listed. This makes me a bit nervous as I plan on using these hand loaded rounds in milsurp rifles that are almost a century old (Gewehr 98s and some other German Imperial rifles). The starting loads, however, range from 39 grs to 48grs, would it be a good idea to try 39 and see what happens or should I switch to another powder ? I have an older set of RCBS 8mm Mauser dies and they do not appear to have any reloading data with them.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks all!
 
IMR 4198 could be used, but it is not listed in the Hodgdon reloading data center because it is not very suitable. It is a fast burning powder more suited to small cases and light bullets such as for the .222 and .223. Pressure will get too high before a standard velocity can be reached. I'd advise you to buy a good manual, and read it - Before you do any reloading.
 
Good thing I asked instead of assuming the 4198 would work properly. I am reading up on the process now to become more familiar with reloading (Wiki is a decent start atleast as I do not own a reloading manual at the moment). I also have a friend who will be coaching me through the process, step by step, as well as referring to the manual that came with my Lee-Anniversary reloading kit.

I am thinking, as I am going to be picking up the supplies this Sunday, to make a switch to "IMR 4320" and try the starting load of 39 grains once I read up a bit more. This powder, with the bullet I will be using, shows the lowest pressures at the starting load and should work out nicely.
 
I have listed loads for a 8mm mauser with 4198 powder but not with 170gr bullets

8x57 mm mauser

125 gr spirepoint
starting load 39.0 gr 4198, 2955 fps
middle load 41.0 gr 4198, 3037 fps
max load 43.0 gr 4198, 3090 fps

150gr spitzer
starting load 38.0 gr 4198, 2692 fps
middle load 40.0 gr 4198, 2801 fps
max load 42.0 gr 4198, 2869 fps

Hope this helps, i do not recommend max loads without working up to the load from a safer starting point.
 
Thank you. In case I cannot get a hold of IMR 4320 or a similar powder with a lower pressure point, I can try a starting load with 4198.
 
Alright, greenhorn alert. I am lost and confused. Assuming that IMR 4320 would work fine for my older Mausers, I checked 7.62x54R so I can reload for my Finnish M91 and behold, it is not listed. I have checked IMR's powder website and it seems all the Rifle powders are suited for magnum cartridges or small ones like .223 Remington. I might as well ask this question and get it over with: Is there a general powder that can be used in my old milsurps as I do not like the idea of having to buy two, three, or more cans of powder to suit a particular firearm. I'm not looking for steller, out of this world performance, just simply wanting to get decent groups on target paper between 100m-300m.

I am looking at picking up "The ABC's of reloading" book, hopefully it will help me figure this out and ultimately make the right powder choice.
 
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If you are planning on using the same loads in several different rifles, you should keep well below max. What is fine in one rifle may be unsafe in another rifle. This is especially important if any of your rifles pre-date the M98.

Hugh
 
I have lots of data for IMR 4320 in the 7.62x54R from the Lyman Ideal #40 handbook. here you go 150gr bullet 52gr MAX-2800fps/47gr STARTING LOAD-2515 fps..........180gr bullet 47.5gr MAX-2600fps/41gr STARTING LOAD-2210 fps............220gr bullet 44gr MAX-2170 fps/STARTING LOAD 37gr -1895 fps................use at own risk may or not be accurate in your gun..............Harold
 
hugh manuell said:
If you are planning on using the same loads in several different rifles, you should keep well below max. What is fine in one rifle may be unsafe in another rifle. This is especially important if any of your rifles pre-date the M98.

Hugh
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. What is interesting is a fellow, who has shot the Gewehr 71/84 with smokeless loaded rounds before, mentioned IMR 4198. When I thought about it and the high pressure load at the start (and the fact you are compressing a .446" lead bullet down a .43" groove bore) makes sense. I have never used black powder but am I right in thinking that you would get a "big bang" at the start whereas smokeless is generally a gradual pressure build up ? I'm also worried about my Gewehr 88/05 with the whole "high pressure" aspect of IMR 4198 considering the historical background on the rifle in testing and the fact that she has her original barrel from 1890 that is not stepped or re-enforced.

For those who fire military surplus 8mm Mauser, would you say there is a high pressure aspect with the rounds similar to IMR 4198 or would it be closer to another powder type ?
 
Thanks mbogo3, that will help if I switch powders.

After looking at both my die sets, I realized there is no powder charts with them (both are RCBS; my 8mm Mauser set is dated 1956 and has a set of reloading instructions in the box while my 7.62x54R is more modern, both dies are two sets).

Both instruction sheets recommended the "Speer Reloading Manual" and after doing an online search, I stumbled upon IMR's rifle loading chart in a handy PDF document. It lists, for 8mm Mauser and my bullet wieght, IMR 4198 and 4320 and I feel quite relived. Strangely, 7.62x54R is not listed but I understand that the bullet is more or less equivilent to a .308. There is a .308 Winchester 180gr (same weight as my 7.62 bullets) and they do list a powder load for 4198. The loads look very similar to what was posted in here earlier, am I right in comparing the two ? The powder charges in the PDF document are quoted at the "maximum allowable chamber pressures" for the test barrels. Also the barrel lengths listed in the PDF are shorter than most of my milsurps with many of them ranging between 29 and 31" in length. Can I assume the muzzle velocity will be a little lower when using the same powder charges in these length of barrels ?

For my 7.62x54R I was looking at ".308 Winchester, 180 gr, IMR 4198".

For 7.92x57mm Mauser I was looking at "8x57 MM Mauser, 170gr, IMR 4198"

Here is a link: IMR Rifle pdf.

Taking their advice to initially reduce the powder charge for IMR 4198 by 10%, I would be looking at a charge of 24.78 for 8mm Mauser and a charge of 30.15 for my 7.62x54R (.308 Winchester 180gr equivalent). Does this sound sensible ?
 
mbogo3 said:
I have lots of data for IMR 4320 in the 7.62x54R from the Lyman Ideal #40 handbook. here you go 150gr bullet 52gr MAX-2800fps/47gr STARTING LOAD-2515 fps..........180gr bullet 47.5gr MAX-2600fps/41gr STARTING LOAD-2210 fps............220gr bullet 44gr MAX-2170 fps/STARTING LOAD 37gr -1895 fps................use at own risk may or not be accurate in your gun..............Harold
Click to expand...

Harold, would you have similar data for IMR 4198 ? I'm looking to see if this .308 Winchester powder charge compares to it.
 
Sorry nothing for IMR 4198 in 7.62x54R.Try reloadersnest.com for lots of free data.............Harold
 
crazydave said:
I also have info with 4320 powder for 170gr bullets but 39.0 grains is way below the min load listed.
Click to expand...

I brought up the Hodgdon site and 39 grains of 4320 is the minimum load shown. Way below the full power load, though.

170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 4007 SSC .323" 2.825" 48.0 2418 34,800 CUP 54.5C 2726 45,600 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN Hodgdon Varget .323" 2.825" 43.0 2362 36,700 CUP 50.5 2700 48,700 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 4320 .323" 2.825" 39.0 2195 34,400 CUP 49.8 2680 49,200 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 4064 .323" 2.825" 41.5 2345 35,700 cUP 48.7 2706 49,300 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN Winchester 748 .323" 2.825" 46.0 2467 35,600 CUP 54.0 2832 48,500 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN Hodgdon BL-C(2) .323" 2.825" 48.8 2560 36,800 CUP 53.5 2839 48,800 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 4895 .323" 2.825" 40.0 2284 36,600 CUP 48.0 2647 47,900 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN Hodgdon H335 .323" 2.825" 42.5 2421 37,400 CUP 49.2 2738 48,800 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN Hodgdon H4895 .323" 2.825" 40.0 2306 37,400 CUP 49.0 2769 48,700 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 8208 XBR .323" 2.825" 44.2 2575 41,400 CUP 47.0 2696 48,000 CUP
170 GR. HDY RN IMR IMR 3031 .323" 2.825" 40.0 2355 35,000 CUP 45.5 2640 47,500 CUP
 
I have used 27 gr of 4198 in 8mmx57 for a plinker type load with a 170 gr bullet.

It is a good powder for making reduced loads, but you might a lot more data for a slightly slower powder, like 4895.
 
I figured the .308 Winchester loads would not compare. I'll have to hunt for a load for 7.62x54R. It seems Reloadersnest doesn't have anything for IMR 4198 and 7.62x54R. For now, I can load for the majority of my rifles with the IMR 4198 powder.

If anyone has tested 7.62x54R, 180 gr bullets using IMR 4198 powder, I would appreciate your assistance and recommendations for a mild starting load.

Thank you all for your help.
 
I found this on Reloadersnest forum:

200 Cast #314299 gas check IMR IMR-4198 20.0 1497
Remarks: sugg. start load
Click to expand...

The information is quoted from Lyman Reloading Manual 49th Edition.

It looks like a suggested starting load of 20 grs of IMR 4198 with a 200 gr bullet would give around 1500 muzzle velocity. The barrel length is not given either.

It is given for a 200 gr bullet, I will be using a 180 gr bullet, what is everyone's thought on this load ?

I plan on using these hand loaded rounds in an M1891 Mosin Nagant.
 
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