Bolt Action Milsurp Shooters?

Weight and Length

I would like to consider the weight and length of the rifle. Most Enfield's and Mosin's come it at about 8.8 pounds give or take depending on the wood. I have looked quite a bit at the AIA M10 No.4 and it is stated at weighing 9.8 pounds. That to me seems like a heavy rifle for even learning to shoot at the range with.

Here is the kicker, I want to have a true WWII era military bolt rifle, but I want it to be in as good of shape as possible. If that means buying a new No.4 Irish contract Enfield or a Mosin Nagant for $300 in excellent condition instead of $150 for a beater than so be it.

I just want a little piece of history that I can learn how to become a great shot with. I want a rugged reliable and accurate military bolt gun that I can shoot targets, soda cans, gongs and maybe even carry in the field for deer now and then.
 
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Mosin Nagant!! If 8mm mauser wasnt such a pain to find id say that. But Nagant for sure considering the current ammo situation.
 
mr.e moose said:
Get a SKS. You will save big time on ammo.My mosin is bleeding me because surplus ammo is getting harder and harder to find. It may not be a bolt but the ammo will not hit you with the big price tag!!
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Now that's funny, since I reload 7.62x39 for my converted No4. Uses Romanian single stack five round mags.
But you can also find unprimed new brass in 7.62x54R and the same goes for .303 and 6.5x55.

If you plan to shoot a lot you MUST reload (or else buy a .22;))
 
Look around a bit: there are still real wartime Number 4s that aren't priced to the Moon and that also are not junk.

Some Number 4s had 2-groove barrels and you can sometimes point this out and get a better price. A 2-groove barrel, properly set-up, will give you excellent accuracy out to 600 yards. The 5-groove and 6-groove barrels really came into their own about 600 and the DCRA guys back in the '60s used to shoot them out to 900 or 1,000.... which is where the Fulton-regulated and A.G. Parker-regulated SMLEs came out of their cases and were used for the REALLY long-range stuff. But hardly anybody shoots like that any longer, so any half-decent Number 4 will do what you want it for.
And it's REAL history and it's OUR history.
And it's one of the easiest rifles there is to maintain, to learn, to use and to shoot. If you don't like a hunting rifle that is too awfully heavy, you can find an original rifle and then find a Bubba'd stock for it, change your woodwork over just before hunting season (4 screws only!) and you're ready to go..... with your real, historical rifle!
There were half a dozen different rear sights for this rifle and most of them are easy to lay fingers on. So, if you get the one with the little 300-600 double-flip sight, you can change it over for a genuine Mark 1 rear sight with the battle-sight for up to 200 (fine for deer-hunting) and the micrometer-screw adjustment for longer ranges.

And if you're handloading, you will find that the rifle kicks less, punishes YOU less, and is more accurate if you shoot a 1809-grain bullet about 200 ft/sec UNDER the military 2440 ft/sec. AND you can handload the cartridge with a 150 to ALMOST give you .308 performance.... and do it with less pressure, too.

Have funs!
 
My flingers fye faster than my brain, I think!

That was SUPPOSED to be 180-grain bullet!!!!!!!!!
BTW, the flatbase Sierra works really nice if you handload it to the overall length of a Mark VII Ball round. The Hornady 150 is terrific if you load it so the cannelure shows. In each case, you are 'crowding the leade' a bit: less space for the bullet to jump free before it hits the rifling. Gives you less bullet deformation and the consequent better accuracy and more consistent pressures.

Whatever.... just have fun.
 
I'm biased on this to some extent, as most folks are. I've shot multiple numbers of the following MILSURPS extensively in their original configurations, M1903 and 03A3 Spfld, M1 Garand,and P17 Enfield and No4 Enfields. I've also shot one of the MkIII LE, P14 Enfield, M1910 Ross, and M27 Finnish Nagant quite a lot. All are good on the range, but I'd give the nod to the M1903 Springfield as borne out by my shooting log. The problem is to find one with a sound bore. They are scarce and pricey to start with and many of the bores are boogered from wear and corrosive priming, altho that could be said about many MILSURPs in circulation.
The .30-06 is an excellent and easy ctg to reload with a huge selection of bullets and propellants available, and the M1903 is an easy one for setting up the bedding. The aperture in the rear leaf sight works very well on the range (unfortunately has too small a field of view as a fighting rifle though).
 
mr.e moose said:
Get a SKS. You will save big time on ammo.My mosin is bleeding me because surplus ammo is getting harder and harder to find. It may not be a bolt but the ammo will not hit you with the big price tag!!
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I allready own a Russian SKS-45, that is why I am looking for a BOLT action milsurp.
 
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Israeli K98 rechambered for 7.62 NATO(308 win) or a swedish mauser in 6.5x55. Although any proud Canadian would go with a Longbranch.
 
If I remember correctly, the Irish contract rifles were all Number 4 Mark II and they all were pos-War manufacture. Absolutely beautiful rifles.... but not real wartime.
AND expensive, too!

You can find a decent Number 4 for decent money, get a spare Bubba stock for hunting. Or you can go the other route, get a Bubba conversion with a decent barrel and rebuild into your target rifle, still have the Bubba stock for hunting. Last Bubba Number 4 I got set me back $90 WITH a bayonet. Barrel has not been cut, bore is excellent and it WILL be a real shooter.

Last few years I have had to really watch the money, living on a total-disability pension that pays HALF what I am now getting on the Old Farts' Pension. I'm RICH now! When I make a suggestion which might seem outrageous, generally, I am making it from the certain knowledge that not everybody makes $75 an hour.
 
Mosin Nagant 91/30

Ok, so I am interested in getting a nice Mosin Nagant 91/30 for a range shooter and to learn to become a good shot with. What is my best bet to find a nice example of a 91/30? I am not looking for an all-matching unissued collector piece here, I would much rather have nice refurbished model that has been built back to almost new factory condition.

Allthough this is going to be a shooter I would like to make sure it is in very nice condition. Where do I begin tracking one down? Thanks
 
Max-4 said:
Ok, so I am interested in getting a nice Mosin Nagant 91/30 for a range shooter and to learn to become a good shot with. What is my best bet to find a nice example of a 91/30? I am not looking for an all-matching unissued collector piece here, I would much rather have nice refurbished model that has been built back to almost new factory condition.

Allthough this is going to be a shooter I would like to make sure it is in very nice condition. Where do I begin tracking one down? Thanks
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Max,

You've got a couple of options for a decent Mosin 91/30. If you're not too far away and want to handle the rifle beforehand, check and see if Elwood Epps has some in stock. Maybe if you're lucky you can get one with Fin Capture markings (in my eyes, a rifle that was captured/used by the good guys), though a regular Soviet rifle would work fine as well.

If you want to order a decent shooter, Tradeex has some for $169, plus 5% GST and about $25 shipping to your door. They are a site sponsor listed on the top of the page.

Alternately, you can just find one on the EE. I saw one or two interesting ones on there the past couple of days, though they cost a bit more on account of Finn markings. Tradeex is probably the easiest no-hastle solution though.

Regards,

Frank
 
Firstly - try to get out, handle, and if possible shoot all these guns. I've bought and sold very nice guns because they didn't suit how I shoot. Getting a gun you're comfortable with is an individual process. The following is based mostly off of general facts about the guns, not including personal preference (as much as possible)

For ACCURACY

Swiss K31
Fact is, these guns are rediculous quality. I mean it. Find me a K31 that shoots badly that hasn't been absurdly abused and I'll eat one of my socks. An old one. These guns will outshoot pretty much all the competing milsurps and come back for more.

Pros
Strait pull action
6rd mag
Uses .308 diameter bullets
carbine
Affordable -> $250 to $600 depending on who's selling and what condition

Cons
either buy the GP11 surplus ammo (rediculously accurate ammo.... seriously, this stuff is mind blowing) or reload. No Commercial ammo.




Swedish Mauser M96

For your buck, these are sweet rifles. 6.5x55 gives a very accurate rifle with what feels like less recoil to me. M96 is longer than the m38 carbine, and therefore has more potential for accuracy at longer ranges.

Pros
Very affordable for what it is
Good cartridge, with both reloading and commercial options

Cons
Long
No surplus



For PRICE

Sporterised enfield.... cheap, common, easy to repair....

K31 - more expensive, but still about as cheap as WW2 Milsurps come and WAY BETTER. It's like buying a 1980's ferrari for the price of a volkswagon rabbit.


For CHEAP AMMO

.............. sks? they aren't super accurate inherently or with the surplus czech ammo though..... basically there isn't any good quality surplus except for the K31.


If you want to choose between the "fronline" guns of WW2 then my preference for accuracy would be:

1) Lee Enfield No4 - sights are probably best of them. Price is average. Parts available.

2) K98 - A little more expensive, accurate, but sights less condusive to accuracy. HOWEVER, they certainly can be accurate. You just need to have a little more skill.

3) Springfield 1903 - WAY more expensive. Just as accurate as first two, maybe a bit more but I don't know.

4) Mosin Nagant 91/30 - Cheapest of them all. Can be very accurate, but you have to select one. Of these four, I have sold all but my repro mosin sniper.
Edit I completely overlooked Finnish mosins. They come up in the EE fairly often. I have no experience with finn 91/30's, but the finnish m39 is one sweet creature. They're generally in good to vg internal condition, but make sure to check beforehand. To get the most potential you're going to want to shoot reloads or commercial. I would recommend against surplus in any gun you want to shoot really really well, as there's the risk of some corrosion if you ever don't clean properly, and the ammo isn't known for its accuracy in any event.
 
If you don't spend your time the way I do (checking in the ditch for lost pennies), then H. Wally pretty much sums it up very nicely.

I am prejudiced toward the Number 4, I know. I just think that it is the finest general-purpose rifle made in the last 70 years, that's all. If it were me, that's what I would look for" one with a Bubba stock, then restock it for the range, bed it right, float it right, dress up the trigger perhaps.... and check The Damned Crack, same as with the old Smellies. Last really decent one I bought was $90 and wood will set me back about that much again. Fortunately, I have a pile of small parts.

There is ALSO the older Lee-Enfield, the Number 1 Mark III*, which has pretty decent sights and a lighter barrel. Likely, for many it would be a better hunting rifle and they can be restored to full military and slicked up just the way they were when they were new. You can find them still for $75 and up, plus another yard or so for wood and small parts for the resto.

The 96 Swedish Mauser does have less recoil than any .30-calibre rifle and it can be just wicked accurate. Sights really aren't up to much, but neither were any of the European rifles, with one exception: the late-model Moisin-Nagant (91/30 et seq.) with the square-notch rear sight and the square-blade front sight: MUCH easier to use than the European standard V-notch and barleycorn.
In with the Swede 96 must go the Swede 38, which is the same rifle, only less of it: shorter and handier, same ammo, same lousy sights but you can do really decent work with them.... and it, also, has less felt recoil than the .30-calibres.

The Russian rifle is ugly, stiff, clunky and a whole bunch of other ugly words. It is also about as reliable as a brick, once you get used to its whims. Only thing I really don't like about them is that very thin forward wood: not stiff enough, hard to bed. Recoil is quite noticeable, but they are historic and they will do the job. Finnish ones generally have decent triggers, but you can't say that for most of the Russian ones.

Ammo for ANY of these is sure to be a handloading proposition. There IS some Russian ammo available at gun shows, packed in 20-round paper packets labelled SNAYPRSKAYA. As one might think, this is Soviet-era sniping ammo, some quite recent. We tried some here in a couple of MNs that shot very nice, and it was all over the barm at 100..... and the primers are violently corrosive, even though it was quite new ammo. Shock! We had no idea that anyone would be making corrosive primers in the 1980s!

For handloading, there are no tricks to any of these cartridges. Keep your big-bore ammo segregated for the rifle it will be shot in, neck-size only, lube the insides of your case-necks, keep your loads a touch on the mild side, anneal your brass every 8 or 10 times it's fired and your brass will last a long time. How long? I don't know. I'm going to the range in a few days to shoot off one batch for the 15th time; it was made in 1942. Flat-based bullets work best in any of the Lee-En=field rifles or in a P-'14 or US M-1917, but you can shoot boat-tails in the others. The Swede doesn't really seem to care, just as long as it gets fed.

Happy hunting/collecting/target-shooting/whatevering!

Have fun!
 
I do not reload myself at the moment, so a rifle that fires a round I can buy in surplus would be great. That being said I have always loved the Lee Enfield No4 MKI, and if I have to buy some brass and have my uncle reload a bunch for me than so be it.
 
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Beadwindow said:
Max,

. Maybe if you're lucky you can get one with Fin Capture markings (in my eyes, a rifle that was captured/used by the good guys), though a regular Soviet rifle would work fine as well.

Regards,

Frank
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IIRC Weren't the Finns fighting with the Nazis against the Russians? I guess it all depends on your point of view of who wore the white cowboy hat. The Mosin 91/30 is long and shoots quite well, cheap and easy to find. Not to mention having a good kick, producing a large tongue of fire. lol. Mine is a Finn capture [SA] marked sample but I don't know if it is better than the other, just a little different with some extra history. Milsurp ammo is available but getting scarce
 
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