I will tell from actual experience shooting black bears at close range ( 5-10 yards) a 410 slug is not a good idea with black bear let alone a grizzly. The one time I had no choice but to use my 410 it basically just stunned the bear long enough for me grab something more substantial to finish the job.
410sxs vs black bear
- Thread starter Canadian Bush Wacker
- Start date
A .410 slug is typically 1/5 of an ounce that doesn't move fast or penetrate deep. Not really sure what it would be good for other than maybe a coyote. They shoot ok at the range for up to 40 or 50 yards when shooting at paper targets, but if you shoot into a bundle of newspaper you would see that it does not go in very far compared to the penetration of other calibers or slugs. A 20 gauge slug is 7/8 of an ounce, 12 gauge is 1 oz. These will do ten times the damage of a .410 slug.
My 870 12G has a folding stock and tucks away quite small for outings. Any small or medium size centerfire rifle would be more effective than a 410 slug.
My 870 12G has a folding stock and tucks away quite small for outings. Any small or medium size centerfire rifle would be more effective than a 410 slug.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
I'd bring a .410 for a survival gun in a fly in camp, it's primary purpose is peace of mind, secondary purpose is signalling for help or securing food in the remote chance that you get stranded, and somewhere far down the list is the possibility that you may actually need to shoot a troublesome bear.
Something I have been curious about for a while, is the 00 buckshot loads with 5 pellets in 3" .410. That load seems to me to be a better self defence choice than one hollow slug, but I'm not sure if anyone has done a penetration test comparing the buckshot load with the .410 slug. I would tend to think that at 10 yards or less the buckshot may actually be better for your purposes.
Something I have been curious about for a while, is the 00 buckshot loads with 5 pellets in 3" .410. That load seems to me to be a better self defence choice than one hollow slug, but I'm not sure if anyone has done a penetration test comparing the buckshot load with the .410 slug. I would tend to think that at 10 yards or less the buckshot may actually be better for your purposes.
thebigslide said, "Agreed. Seriously. A lot of people don't catch on to this, but because penetration is a function of surface area, a 12 ga slug and a .22 have about the same penetration power."
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Oh, of course. Who wouldn't know that?
I've seen an old fashioned 12 gauge slug enter one side of a bull moose and exit the other side of the moose.
Obviously, a 22 rimfire would easily do the same thing!!!!!!
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Oh, of course. Who wouldn't know that?
I've seen an old fashioned 12 gauge slug enter one side of a bull moose and exit the other side of the moose.
Obviously, a 22 rimfire would easily do the same thing!!!!!!
constructoman
New member
- Location
- Kitchener Ontario
410 is against the law in Ontario. The minimum allowed for black bear here in Ontario is 20 gauge. If you shoot a black bear in Ontario with that 410 the MNR will throw whatever is left of you in jail.
I am sure getting fed up on reading about bear, meaning black bear, defence guns.
It is only bears that are habituated with people, that may present a danger. Bears that are not the slightest bit afraid of humans, look on them as just a possible food source. If you let them, the extremely odd one, may decide to take a bite out of you.
Black bears are cowards. How many times have we read where a bear was after a dog/calf/child and the lady of the house spotted it, grabbed her broom and chased away the bear? Many times I have read where a person hit the bear with a tin pail, stick, shovel, broom, whatever, and the bear ran away.
Black bears will not defend their cubs. I have personally, on more than one occassion, chased little cubs up a tree, while mother bear ran off a few steps and watched. I know of many other cases involving other people, where a mother black bear would not defend her cubs.
Countless people who know absolutely nothing about the subject, are forever writing about what a potent firearm you need for shooting bears, because the wounded bear will attack you. This is absolute balderdash. Throughout quite a long lifetime, I have never seen, never heard of, nor ever read, of a bona fide case of a wounded black bear attempting to attack the shooter, or any one else!
Now, before you start telling me a fourth hand story about an uncle of a friends buddy being attcked by a wounded black bear, let's look at some bear facts. Bears have very poor eyes. When a bear is startled, it takes off in the direction it is pointed and just seems to go in a straight line, bulldozing through the bush, or what ever is in the way. The same thing applies to an unsuspecting bear that is hit with a bullet. It takes off in the direction it is pointed. I have personally had this happen. I was standing on a big brush pile and made a poor shot on a black bear. It made a bee line toward me and hid in the brush pile I was standing on! I had to get down, move some brush to get a clear view of the bear to finish it, while it did it's best to hide and increase its distance from me.
Go to your camp and have fun. If a black bear bothers, hit him in the fanny with a broom, or, if it will make you feel better, shoot him with your 410.
It is only bears that are habituated with people, that may present a danger. Bears that are not the slightest bit afraid of humans, look on them as just a possible food source. If you let them, the extremely odd one, may decide to take a bite out of you.
Black bears are cowards. How many times have we read where a bear was after a dog/calf/child and the lady of the house spotted it, grabbed her broom and chased away the bear? Many times I have read where a person hit the bear with a tin pail, stick, shovel, broom, whatever, and the bear ran away.
Black bears will not defend their cubs. I have personally, on more than one occassion, chased little cubs up a tree, while mother bear ran off a few steps and watched. I know of many other cases involving other people, where a mother black bear would not defend her cubs.
Countless people who know absolutely nothing about the subject, are forever writing about what a potent firearm you need for shooting bears, because the wounded bear will attack you. This is absolute balderdash. Throughout quite a long lifetime, I have never seen, never heard of, nor ever read, of a bona fide case of a wounded black bear attempting to attack the shooter, or any one else!
Now, before you start telling me a fourth hand story about an uncle of a friends buddy being attcked by a wounded black bear, let's look at some bear facts. Bears have very poor eyes. When a bear is startled, it takes off in the direction it is pointed and just seems to go in a straight line, bulldozing through the bush, or what ever is in the way. The same thing applies to an unsuspecting bear that is hit with a bullet. It takes off in the direction it is pointed. I have personally had this happen. I was standing on a big brush pile and made a poor shot on a black bear. It made a bee line toward me and hid in the brush pile I was standing on! I had to get down, move some brush to get a clear view of the bear to finish it, while it did it's best to hide and increase its distance from me.
Go to your camp and have fun. If a black bear bothers, hit him in the fanny with a broom, or, if it will make you feel better, shoot him with your 410.
Old saying in the world of military studies - There's nothing more expensive than an army that's not quite good enough. It applies to rifles, too. There's nothing more futile than packing a firearm not capable of reliably doing the job.
If you are wandering the woods with a .410 in search of surplus squirrels and get jumped by a bear, then that .410 is the best firearm in the world, 'cause it's the one you've got and it's miles ahead of throwing rocks.
If on the other hand you are planning to carry a .410 to take on bears, it's definitely time to rethink. Perfect shot, side-on, from ambush - OK. Pissed-off bruin coming at you at warp speed with a gut full of adrenaline? You'd better hope there's somebody slower than you in your group.
You don't need $$$ sights, because a bear 500 yards away is by definition not a threat. You don't need eight shots because you're not going to get eight shots off in a charge situation anyway. You don't need a firearm that has all the bells and whistles to keep recoil down - you're not shooting this for fun.
In short, given that you want protection from an aggressive 500 lb carnivore, the .410 would seem rather on the limp side. One suggestion might be the H&R Handi-Rifle or one like it. I've never used the HR, frankly, but the reviews are good, they come in some effective calibres (like .45/70 and .308 Win) and they're pretty inexpensive. They also have an automatic ejector, which would speed up the second shot. There are others of the same sort out there if you look around.
My 2 pesos.
If you are wandering the woods with a .410 in search of surplus squirrels and get jumped by a bear, then that .410 is the best firearm in the world, 'cause it's the one you've got and it's miles ahead of throwing rocks.
If on the other hand you are planning to carry a .410 to take on bears, it's definitely time to rethink. Perfect shot, side-on, from ambush - OK. Pissed-off bruin coming at you at warp speed with a gut full of adrenaline? You'd better hope there's somebody slower than you in your group.
You don't need $$$ sights, because a bear 500 yards away is by definition not a threat. You don't need eight shots because you're not going to get eight shots off in a charge situation anyway. You don't need a firearm that has all the bells and whistles to keep recoil down - you're not shooting this for fun.
In short, given that you want protection from an aggressive 500 lb carnivore, the .410 would seem rather on the limp side. One suggestion might be the H&R Handi-Rifle or one like it. I've never used the HR, frankly, but the reviews are good, they come in some effective calibres (like .45/70 and .308 Win) and they're pretty inexpensive. They also have an automatic ejector, which would speed up the second shot. There are others of the same sort out there if you look around.
My 2 pesos.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Tell that to the family of the poor guy that got killed and eaten while he was opening his fishing lodge at Nonacho Lake for the season after being closed for 8 months.
I'd sure like to see some of those articles. Got any copies or links?
I will agree with H4831 - black bears are a lot less aggressive than grizzlies (never had to argue with the latter, thank God) and I suspect that many 'attacks' are just a bewildered bruin trying to get away. I have myself seen stories about black bears being chased off by mothers, but then I've seen the same for cougars.
On the other hand, I also knew personally a fellow who lost two kids to one blackie. That was, I am certain, the exception but people do actually win lotteries, too.
I think the OP's concept is a good one. Not thrilled with the .410, but minimum gun with suitable calibre is sensible insurance.
On the other hand, I also knew personally a fellow who lost two kids to one blackie. That was, I am certain, the exception but people do actually win lotteries, too.
I think the OP's concept is a good one. Not thrilled with the .410, but minimum gun with suitable calibre is sensible insurance.
I have other guns that would work well, but I be dammed if they are going fishing,lol. I have a the perfect 870 with slug barrel but is just to darn nice to take on a fly in! The 410, is something I wouldn't cry over if it got wrecked on a trip.
Damit now, I may have look for one of those little short nasty 12 gauge sxs's
Damit now, I may have look for one of those little short nasty 12 gauge sxs's
I know what you are getting at, however I think Ray Kitchen wouldn't be so dead if that were entirely true. I knew his daughter very well. I would never underestimate an animal that could literally rip me to pieces.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Largely true H4831, and it's been true of every one I've personally met. Myself, I never carry a firearm when camping for bear defense. However, aggressive male bears do exist. If being armed makes you feel better, then by all means, if it's legal.
Check the couple that were killed in Algonquin a number of years ago. Bates island.
When they came to the island looking for the couple, they found fresh hamburger untouched by the grill.
They later found the couple partly eaten, and buried with brush.
When the bear was killed, it was discovered that he had considerable bruising on his back.
There was a broken paddle at the campsite, leading investigators to assume that one of the two, had attempted to beat off the bear, who was attacking the other.
A list of bear attacks on humans can be found here
As you can see, it's a pretty short list.
Don't do anything stupid, and you're not likely to be found on it.
Check the couple that were killed in Algonquin a number of years ago. Bates island.
When they came to the island looking for the couple, they found fresh hamburger untouched by the grill.
They later found the couple partly eaten, and buried with brush.
When the bear was killed, it was discovered that he had considerable bruising on his back.
There was a broken paddle at the campsite, leading investigators to assume that one of the two, had attempted to beat off the bear, who was attacking the other.
A list of bear attacks on humans can be found here
As you can see, it's a pretty short list.
Don't do anything stupid, and you're not likely to be found on it.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
I spend a lot of time in the bush, and never worry about bears. I have never taken a gun camping. I am however going to take bear spray in my pack this year when I go. I fully expect to never have to use it though.
PM me, I'll make you some and you be the judge. Come and get them next time you're thru Edmonton. Its a fun novelty, but not much use for anything in the survival/hunting world. Although people who have concerns about self defense would be more interested.
When camping in no-gun areas, I do carry bear spray. What's the saying about lawyers - 95% of them give the rest a bad name? The way I figure it, it only takes one.
I've never needed to use it, but there was a time last summer when it was out, finger on trigger and I was wishing like hell it was something involving lead and cordite. It worked out to both the bear's satisfaction and ours, but that tin can felt very, very inadequate for about five minutes.
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I don't want to start anymore controversy on this subject, but I just thought of something that may be useful for people getting information about bears on this thread.
I know very well a person who has lived for 28 years in a rural area of trees and nearby fields. I don't think there has been one summer that bears did not show up at some period.
He keeps the garbage in containers they can't open, but he often can't keep dog food outside and has to cover the barbique. One will often come around the buildings in the evening, while it is still light. He says he usually just yells at them and they go. I have several times told him to be careful, but he says he is.
A couple of years ago he told me he had a bear that was getting an attitude, and wouldn't go. I told him to be exceptionally careful of that one. The next time I saw him he told me he had shot the bear with the attitude, with a marker gun of the type they play games with, with a marking pellet.
He said the bear was about thirty feet away when he shot it in the ribs. It jumped and took off through the bush and never came back. He said it made a good colored spot for identification, but besides that, he could identify most bears that came around and he never saw that bear again.
I know very well a person who has lived for 28 years in a rural area of trees and nearby fields. I don't think there has been one summer that bears did not show up at some period.
He keeps the garbage in containers they can't open, but he often can't keep dog food outside and has to cover the barbique. One will often come around the buildings in the evening, while it is still light. He says he usually just yells at them and they go. I have several times told him to be careful, but he says he is.
A couple of years ago he told me he had a bear that was getting an attitude, and wouldn't go. I told him to be exceptionally careful of that one. The next time I saw him he told me he had shot the bear with the attitude, with a marker gun of the type they play games with, with a marking pellet.
He said the bear was about thirty feet away when he shot it in the ribs. It jumped and took off through the bush and never came back. He said it made a good colored spot for identification, but besides that, he could identify most bears that came around and he never saw that bear again.
Sure Blackies are pussys most of the time, but there is enough history to tell you to at least think about it. My first bear encounter was when I was 12 yrs old and was walking along an overgrown logging trail in northern Sask carrying a single shot .22. I jumped over a deadfall in the trail to land right beside a Blackie who was having a siesta.
I let out a holler and ran one way and Mr. Bruin did likewise in the opposite direction. I don't know about him, but I checked my drawers for lumps after that one.
I look at carrying a gun in bear/cat country as insurance. Chances are you'll never need it, but if you do, you are damn glad to have it. I do wildlife damage inspections on forage crops in southern B.C. and find it worth the trouble to be armed when walking the more remote fields in bear and cat country. Some of the alfalfa fields that I work are veritable fawn nurseries in early summer-a major attractant for bears and cougars.
It's a personal decision that I would'nt try to talk someone else into or out of. I've also concluded that it's also a waste of time convincing somebody else how much gun is enough for bears. I spent many yrs in the Army during which time I survived getting shot at, a broken back, and fried guts from eating off the local economy in some wierd and wonderful places. I figure on being around to collect my pension for at least as long as I paid into it, and turning myself into a bear fart before that happens does'nt factor into my retirement plans.
I let out a holler and ran one way and Mr. Bruin did likewise in the opposite direction. I don't know about him, but I checked my drawers for lumps after that one.I look at carrying a gun in bear/cat country as insurance. Chances are you'll never need it, but if you do, you are damn glad to have it. I do wildlife damage inspections on forage crops in southern B.C. and find it worth the trouble to be armed when walking the more remote fields in bear and cat country.
Some of the alfalfa fields that I work are veritable fawn nurseries in early summer-a major attractant for bears and cougars.It's a personal decision that I would'nt try to talk someone else into or out of. I've also concluded that it's also a waste of time convincing somebody else how much gun is enough for bears. I spent many yrs in the Army during which time I survived getting shot at, a broken back, and fried guts from eating off the local economy in some wierd and wonderful places.
I figure on being around to collect my pension for at least as long as I paid into it, and turning myself into a bear fart before that happens does'nt factor into my retirement plans.H4831 while I agree about 99 percent with ya and know that you have seen about as much country and bear as any man to post on CGN but don't forget the bear who drug away a NE BC worker then stood up to a camp full of rig workers swinging everythng they could lay hands on in an attempt a rescue a mediocre sized black bear's supper. They failed.
When a black bear decides you are prey they are not the cowards they can be. I once spent almost two hours trying to convince a december bear to stop laying in ambush for me and to stop trying to cross the magic line which would bring the mdl94 into action. No harm done but it could of gone either way. I also had a very large sow use a charge out of nowhere to convince me to stay away. It might have been a bluff.
As a general rule I do agree with the poor mothering skills they possess. I have a great series of videos and photos of two treed cubs that felt pretty abandoned by thier mom and sibling who cut trail 10 yards from my wife and I as we ate lunch. The mew and cry they put up brought a boar who just about had a heart attack when I screamed like a girl. He never looked back and did'nt stop running until he went over the rise on the other side of the valley. Eventually the cubs proved themselves braver then the boar and distainfully climbed down gave one hiss and headed off after Mom a good 45 minutes behind her.
When a black bear decides you are prey they are not the cowards they can be. I once spent almost two hours trying to convince a december bear to stop laying in ambush for me and to stop trying to cross the magic line which would bring the mdl94 into action. No harm done but it could of gone either way. I also had a very large sow use a charge out of nowhere to convince me to stay away. It might have been a bluff.
As a general rule I do agree with the poor mothering skills they possess. I have a great series of videos and photos of two treed cubs that felt pretty abandoned by thier mom and sibling who cut trail 10 yards from my wife and I as we ate lunch. The mew and cry they put up brought a boar who just about had a heart attack when I screamed like a girl. He never looked back and did'nt stop running until he went over the rise on the other side of the valley. Eventually the cubs proved themselves braver then the boar and distainfully climbed down gave one hiss and headed off after Mom a good 45 minutes behind her.
