military rifles and their ammo

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eg23

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Ok this may seem silly and I'm not sure this is the right forum but here goes.
I've done a lot of reading in the precision rifle forum and most serious marksmen talk about handloading to get the most accuracy out of a rifle.
Now I've always been a fan of finding the ammo that my rifle likes...unfortunatly I do have reloading capabilities yet...
Now here is my queston. Military precision rifles are "produce in numbers" and all shoot the same supplied round and they are amazingly accurate. Are the rifle specificly made to the supplied round or the other way around? Do they build the rifle, test it with the supplied ammo and if it doesn't shoot the get rid of it?
My question may not be articulated very well but hopefully you all get my drift.
Thanks
Eric
 
i have seen many picture of dillon and other small scale reloading gear used in millitary unit in the us to produce sniper grade ammo
 
esquif said:
i have seen many picture of dillon and other small scale reloading gear used in millitary unit in the us to produce sniper grade ammo
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Other than certain units under specific regulations and circumstances there is no provision for handloading ammunition in the military. In most cases commercial match ammunition is the norm, or specific loads are contracted by the mil.
The US Army Marksmanship Unit loads their own,as they deal with non issued calibers in International and National Competition.
In the Canadian mil you get to use what you are given usually off the shelf match ammunition or in some cases other NATO ammunition (in Croatia I was issued M118 LRM for my C3).
 
"..."produce in numbers"..." Not like PBI battle rifles are.
"...the rifle specificly made to the supplied round..." That can't be done. Ammo is always made for the rifle. Every barrel will be slightly different just like in any commercial rifle. So the ammo has to be made for the rifle.
Sniper rifles are fitted to the shooter and don't use the same ammo used by the PBI.
 
...Well you're right. Based on a couple of Books and a little reading from other sources, as it related to the Vietnam Conflict and the US Snipers. Basically the rifles were pretty much standard "snipers" and if one didn't perform up to expectations ( standard) it was "tweaked" until it did, by the Armorer's. Ammunition, and basically I can only comment on the 7.62, MATCH GRADE ammunition only was used ( Factory) and once sighted in, every effort was made to continue using Ammunition from the SAME BATCH/LOT, for the sake of consistency. Individual rifles may have performed better with one batch than with another, and if that was the case, then the individual sniper would make every effort to maintain his own, ample supply of that ammunition. .... It's one thing to shoot under ideal range conditions, and having the luxury of spares and a clear Target, it's another when the Sniper has to "Hump" all their gear plus radios and equipment plus food, under Combat conditions, for days and week's, in some cases, on end. Thus what's Competition Winning accuracy on the Range may not be required when operating under Combat conditions. ..... David K
 
eg23 said:
Now here is my queston. Military precision rifles are "produce in numbers" and all shoot the same supplied round and they are amazingly accurate. ....Thanks
Eric
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And here in lies the different standards used in various forms of shooting.

For a working rifle, cold bore consistency is everything. Their goal is to put that bullet on a sizeable target some distance away from field positions under any and all weather conditions.

The supplied ammo and rifles are tuned to accomplish this task very well. however, in pure mechanical accuracy, they are at best a 1/2 min rig with most in the sub MOA range.

Some rigs that have had excellent field success aren't even this accurate.

Military standards for precision are much more generous then civilian competition rigs.

MOA is plenty good enough to engage the vast majority of military targets.

Most modern hunting rifles and a number of factory ammo will shoot as well...after they are bedded properly.

Jerry
 
Are you referring to infantry weapons (main battle rifles) or sniper weapon systems?

Modern Battle rifles are constructed to provide adequate accuracy with NATO spec ammo. I would love for smeone to give me the updated offical standard, but when I was schlepping an FN 30 years ago, we were told it was capable of 2" at 100 yards with an outstanding rifleman. I achieved a 2" group in a qualification shoot once and never did it again.

They were constructed to have long barrel life, tolerate adverse environmental conditions and hit a center of mass at 200M. Anything else was gravy.

There are inherent limitations on the accuracy of a semi-automatic rifle.
 
I left the services in 91, so I can't comment on the newer rifles. Here is my experience with service rifles and service grade ammo:

LE .303 - 1 out of 4 was a dog, but also 1 of 4 shot really well, 2 were ok.

FN/FAL (C1A1)- 1 of 3 was awesome, most were pretty good. 1 of 10 not so great.

C7 - 1 of 4 shot well. 1 OK, and 2 substandard.
 
artical comparing accuracy of various 5.56 military ammo.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm

My info may be dated, it has been 20 years since I was in the infantry, but then our service rifle competition were shot for score, never for group. The only time I ever saw a group was in basic. We were zeroing our rifles and there was only one indicator patch on my target. What had happened was that all shots that I fired were under that one patch. I never duplicated that again, but I was still selected to compete in service rifle against other units, civilians and RCMP.
 
Military sniper rifles generally DO NOT shoot that well.Thier acurracy is fine for the job they are made for but they couldn't keep up to civy BR and target rifles.
Canadian forces use Lapua .338 ammo not Norma.If you saw it then they must have been out of the issue stuff or perhaps trying something new.
We do use Norma .308 though so perhaps you confused the two.
 
Obtunded said:
Modern Battle rifles are constructed to provide adequate accuracy with NATO spec ammo. I would love for smeone to give me the updated offical standard, but when I was schlepping an FN 30 years ago, we were told it was capable of 2" at 100 yards with an outstanding rifleman. I achieved a 2" group in a qualification shoot once and never did it again.
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It's a shame that they didn't know any better, and (though probably not realizing it) spouting total BS at you an every other soldier being trained, who likely felt like idiots for not being able to accomplish a 2" group that "the rifle was capable of". That simply is not achievable with an FN. Because for one thing, the ammo used was not capable of shooting 2" groups. Even tested out of target rifles, with specially-designed chambers and tight barrels (which could shoot 1/2" with handloads), and shot F-Class-style, yadda yadda....

jasonburnsdundee said:
artical comparing accuracy of various 5.56 military ammo.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm
Click to expand...

That's a good web page, I really liked it. The final group sure underlines the results(!)
 
The point that many have made with reloading is twofold. First, reloading is much cheaper then buying Matchgrade ammunition - Matchgrade is almost 2-3 bucks a shot (Federal 168Grain SMK) and it is possible to produce similiar if not better ammunition on a press for a third of that cost. Second, Matchgrade ammunition is pretty darn good - you can easily achive MOA with Matchgrade ammunition and a good sniper rifle. In the military this is sufficient for getting body hits (speaking .308/7.62 here) out to 800m. You need to keep in mind that there is a significant difference between benchrest and military shooters. The BR community can achieve much better accuracy because of load tuning, rifle tuning, etc but while some of these techniques can be applied to military shooting, most of it is not practical for field use. The military is focused on hitting mansized targets and the practical difference between a 1/2 MOA and 1/4 MOA rifle is not enough to warrant the issues that would arise from trying to use a BR type rifle and load...
 
Longshot said:
Military sniper rifles generally DO NOT shoot that well.Thier acurracy is fine for the job they are made for but they couldn't keep up to civy BR and target rifles.
Canadian forces use Lapua .338 ammo not Norma.If you saw it then they must have been out of the issue stuff or perhaps trying something new.
We do use Norma .308 though so perhaps you confused the two.
Click to expand...

Yes, I mixed things up the Norma was .308, I have seen both that and 338 in theater. Well that's why they put erasers on the back of pencils.
 
Longshot said:
Military sniper rifles generally DO NOT shoot that well.Thier acurracy is fine for the job they are made for but they couldn't keep up to civy BR and target rifles.
Canadian forces use Lapua .338 ammo not Norma.If you saw it then they must have been out of the issue stuff or perhaps trying something new.
We do use Norma .308 though so perhaps you confused the two.
Click to expand...

Once the Lapua .338LM is used up they will be using RUAG.

Reaper can inject here.
 
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