Silver bolt vs black bolt sks?
- Thread starter ratherbefishin
- Start date
If you search around this forum and some sks forums on the next the experienced collectors and shooters will agree on the following...
Russian SKS scale worst to best
Refurb black bolt- Mixed parts and every thing is spray painted black, Its a good shooter but it looks crappy and the parts may not fit well since they are a mixed batch. "this ones a pure shooter"
Refurb silver bolt- metal is all matching and looks great "shooter or collector"
Non refurb- same as refurb silver bolt but with no refurb stamp and stock is 100% original "collectors gun"
If you want a really nice looking shooter get a refurb silver bolt.
Now I have posted this on CGN before and people have said it's not true. I have personally handled a couple of black bolt skses and I can tell you they were loose. The stock didn't fit into the front mount properly. Now I never shot them so I don't know how they shot but I can see why it's said they are made from mixed matched parts.
Russian SKS scale worst to best
Refurb black bolt- Mixed parts and every thing is spray painted black, Its a good shooter but it looks crappy and the parts may not fit well since they are a mixed batch. "this ones a pure shooter"
Refurb silver bolt- metal is all matching and looks great "shooter or collector"
Non refurb- same as refurb silver bolt but with no refurb stamp and stock is 100% original "collectors gun"
If you want a really nice looking shooter get a refurb silver bolt.
Now I have posted this on CGN before and people have said it's not true. I have personally handled a couple of black bolt skses and I can tell you they were loose. The stock didn't fit into the front mount properly. Now I never shot them so I don't know how they shot but I can see why it's said they are made from mixed matched parts.
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
Not to put damper on the idea of a pristine SKS being out there somewhere, but it's more likely that non-refurb rifles will fail. Assuming these non refurbs have been used in the past which most people will agree they ALL have been,they'll all have some wear whereas any refurb has brand new internal parts to replace damaged, corroded, or worn parts. As a collector, pick a different gun to "invest" in. As a shooter get the best bang for your buck and go nuts, SKS make great beater guns, and some even look pretty with their shiney bayo and bright bolt and laminated stock.
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
Also, it's worth noting there has been much discussion about this on SKS boards. The following quote sums it all up nicely.
By: Logan7 SKSboards.com
There are a lot of assumptions flying around about the Russian SKS, agreed. I have heard this one, too. And I think the basis for the myth is the 'r' stamp following the year on all receiver covers and original stocks. Blinding idiots (blidiots) think this is an arsenal "r"efurb stamp, not realizing that Russians use the Cyrillic alphabet, not the English.
The Cyrillic 'r' is the first letter in the Russian word pronounced about like "goda" - meaning "in the year of". It is not unlike a copyright mark or 'circa' term for us. It has of course nothing at all to do with the refurb process.
I also have unwrapped a mint '55 Fazakerly from the mummy wrap and cosmoline and understand what un-issued milsurp means. No such thing happened here in the U.S. with Russian SKS's. The very best of them were gently worn, all original, non refurbs. I call these 'as-issued'. And of course the refubed ones seemed more nearly new than these. But there were no perfect, unblemished, cosmolined wrapped for storage and unissued examples. Maybe you'll find them in Canada. Don't know.
+++++
If you like, here are some common terms I'm trying to better define regarding Russian SKS's. Your input would be appreciated:
un-issued/non-issued : meaningless to me. I've never heard them used in reference to the milsurp Russian SKS. Don't believe anyone's seen one. Commonly misapplied to minty refurbs.
as-issued : the collector's prize. A rifle exactly the way it came off the production line at Tula or Izhevsk. All the serials match. All the parts are original. No refurbishment marking. Complete and nothing missing. These usually show some gentle wear; they appear their age and have not been refurbished. You know, it's the refurbs that appear to be 'like new' rifles.
non-refurb : implies it is 'as-issued' but without the full commitment. There are no refurb marks, no obvious replacement parts, no refurb black paint, and the serials all match. But the rifle may not be complete, and in fact a previous owner might have turned a non-refurb into a bubba with plastic bits and high-cap magazine. It might not have been sent in for refurb in the USSR, but who knows what you're holding.
refurb/re-arsenalled : has been back to the factory or one of the SKS refurb facilities before import to the U.S. It might have a refurb stamp (or it might not), parts were replaced and therefore serials might not match, paint might have been applied to some metal, the stock is almost certainly a replacement. These are very easy to spot and differentiate from as-issued Russian SKS's.
all-original : not the best way to describe an SKS. I am dubious when I hear this because replacement stocks on refurbs are often renumbered to match the rifle and this confuses amateur sellers/buyers as to its originality. Ideally, the term means there are no apparent replacement parts which implies a non-refurb status, and may even be in as-issued condition.
unfired/new-in-box : these are important terms that usually refer to mint status on collectible firearms and are totally misapplied to imported milsurp weapons where no such proof can be offered. Here, these indicate only that after importation (and re-packaging) the rifles have never been shot. These terms might be equally mis-applied to 'as-issued' or 'refurb' Russians. And while a refurb actually does look brand spanking new out of the box (because the refurb process brought them up to excellent mechanical condition and like-new appearance), this term should be reserved for production new firearms. It simply does not mean the one you buy hasn't seen great use and abuse and then been refurbished, imported, and repackaged.
By: Logan7 SKSboards.com
There are a lot of assumptions flying around about the Russian SKS, agreed. I have heard this one, too. And I think the basis for the myth is the 'r' stamp following the year on all receiver covers and original stocks. Blinding idiots (blidiots) think this is an arsenal "r"efurb stamp, not realizing that Russians use the Cyrillic alphabet, not the English.
The Cyrillic 'r' is the first letter in the Russian word pronounced about like "goda" - meaning "in the year of". It is not unlike a copyright mark or 'circa' term for us. It has of course nothing at all to do with the refurb process.
I also have unwrapped a mint '55 Fazakerly from the mummy wrap and cosmoline and understand what un-issued milsurp means. No such thing happened here in the U.S. with Russian SKS's. The very best of them were gently worn, all original, non refurbs. I call these 'as-issued'. And of course the refubed ones seemed more nearly new than these. But there were no perfect, unblemished, cosmolined wrapped for storage and unissued examples. Maybe you'll find them in Canada. Don't know.
+++++
If you like, here are some common terms I'm trying to better define regarding Russian SKS's. Your input would be appreciated:
un-issued/non-issued : meaningless to me. I've never heard them used in reference to the milsurp Russian SKS. Don't believe anyone's seen one. Commonly misapplied to minty refurbs.
as-issued : the collector's prize. A rifle exactly the way it came off the production line at Tula or Izhevsk. All the serials match. All the parts are original. No refurbishment marking. Complete and nothing missing. These usually show some gentle wear; they appear their age and have not been refurbished. You know, it's the refurbs that appear to be 'like new' rifles.
non-refurb : implies it is 'as-issued' but without the full commitment. There are no refurb marks, no obvious replacement parts, no refurb black paint, and the serials all match. But the rifle may not be complete, and in fact a previous owner might have turned a non-refurb into a bubba with plastic bits and high-cap magazine. It might not have been sent in for refurb in the USSR, but who knows what you're holding.
refurb/re-arsenalled : has been back to the factory or one of the SKS refurb facilities before import to the U.S. It might have a refurb stamp (or it might not), parts were replaced and therefore serials might not match, paint might have been applied to some metal, the stock is almost certainly a replacement. These are very easy to spot and differentiate from as-issued Russian SKS's.
all-original : not the best way to describe an SKS. I am dubious when I hear this because replacement stocks on refurbs are often renumbered to match the rifle and this confuses amateur sellers/buyers as to its originality. Ideally, the term means there are no apparent replacement parts which implies a non-refurb status, and may even be in as-issued condition.
unfired/new-in-box : these are important terms that usually refer to mint status on collectible firearms and are totally misapplied to imported milsurp weapons where no such proof can be offered. Here, these indicate only that after importation (and re-packaging) the rifles have never been shot. These terms might be equally mis-applied to 'as-issued' or 'refurb' Russians. And while a refurb actually does look brand spanking new out of the box (because the refurb process brought them up to excellent mechanical condition and like-new appearance), this term should be reserved for production new firearms. It simply does not mean the one you buy hasn't seen great use and abuse and then been refurbished, imported, and repackaged.
This is quite simply not true.
SOME non-refurbs are issued. Most barely so, from what we have seen recently in Canada. MANY are unissued guns that were only factory test fired and still have preservative coatings on the bayonets.
A non-refurb will USUALLY (though not always) have a better fit and finish than a refurb will because all the parts were mated at the factory, not randomly drawn from a bin of refinished parts, renumbered, etc.
You can't apply US info to the guns coming in now. Even gurus like Howie Bearse are lurking on Canadian forums and learning new things about Russian SKS's from the pics we are posting - food for thought.
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
Quote
"This is quite simply not true.
SOME non-refurbs are issued. Most barely so, from what we have seen recently in Canada. MANY are unissued guns that were only factory test fired and still have preservative coatings on the bayonets."
A non-refurb will USUALLY (though not always) have a better fit and finish than a refurb will because all the parts were mated at the factory, not randomly drawn from a bin of refinished parts, renumbered, etc.
Fair enough but... Show me something with consecutive numbers wrapped in the ORIGINAL packing with documents and i'll be a believer. I don't doubt there may be some great as-issued guns, but as far as Russians go i'd say it's pretty tough to make the absolute call one way or the other
"This is quite simply not true.
SOME non-refurbs are issued. Most barely so, from what we have seen recently in Canada. MANY are unissued guns that were only factory test fired and still have preservative coatings on the bayonets."
A non-refurb will USUALLY (though not always) have a better fit and finish than a refurb will because all the parts were mated at the factory, not randomly drawn from a bin of refinished parts, renumbered, etc.
Fair enough but... Show me something with consecutive numbers wrapped in the ORIGINAL packing with documents and i'll be a believer. I don't doubt there may be some great as-issued guns, but as far as Russians go i'd say it's pretty tough to make the absolute call one way or the other
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
Also worth noting, Mr. Bearse is most noteable for the Chinese Variants, while no less an expert. I just find it hard to believe that 60 years later there are warehouses full of civillian ready gun being sold to Canada, of all places, that havn't already been re-arsenaled in some form or another. The franken-pinning first off as these all came in a 10-rd factory mag. The matching wood and serials are nice but it's impossible to tell a true original without some paperwork which no one seems to have.
Original packing doesn't exist on an SKS. They came in waxed paper lined crates from the factory. And I actually do have one of the crates
Documents exist for SOME sks carbines, Yugos for sure. Russians never came with them when new.
Telling an issued gun from an unissued one is easy if you've seen one in person. There are no scratch marks from the cover lever or the rear sight block lever. The bolt has no hammer strike peening on the back. The bolt face is completely fresh. The blueing perfect and the stock without blemish.
Don't believe me? Fine, don't. Westrifle has actually been to the depots in Russia and has seen unissued guns in large numbers. I'm sure he'll chime in shortly
It never existed. Even brand new military AKM's rolling off the line at Tula right now don't come with documentation
This is NOT your daddy's commercial shotgun.
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
and.. Any factory would have records of any manufactured goods leaving the factory or being repaired, such documents would include the serial numbers and dates. I'm not saying they'll come with a user manual or warranty card. Just some kind of original record of which serials were manufactured where and when. It's not too much to ask if people want to charge a "collector" price for an SKS.
- Location
- In the Badlands of Alberta
Seeing as you seem to have it all figured out,I'm sure you can get this info from the records at Tula and Ishevsk for us without much trouble. Or are you talking about the "Mitchell's Mausers" type of documentation?
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
I'm not saying i'd be the one to do it, i'm not an importer nor do i plan on being the foremost authority. But as a collector i'd need to see something that indicated some real heritage before tossing money at it. You can polish a turd all you want but in the end... While the SKS is great it wont be recognized like a WW2 Capture rifle with the original, untampered markings. Take the M44 carbines for example, I've seen some GORGEOUS examples but none had any sort of traceable lineage to make it any more special than any other nice looking milsurp. Trust me, if i had the chance i'd do all the legwork, i love these guns, but nothing short of orignial inventory documents is going to make any SKS stand out from another in my mind. I'd be surprised if the real collector pieces aren't already in museums somewhere. I doubt they'll make it to Canada
2ndShotCanada
CGN Regular
and the Mitchell's comment, well. I'm much rather have a true original, from the hands of a departed soldier than a polished wall hanger that saw the inside of a crate for 60 years or that was re-engineered and given some sort of false authenticity.
