Webley #### and Reloading data

apu

apu

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Finally got my mits on a sweet example of a nitroproofed uncut .455 MKII.
I could not have asked for more, it's in amazing original condition.

addendum: this thread has turned into more about reloading for the 455 round(good stuff is on page three)
so I have ammended the title of the thread
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Finally got a chance to throw a few rounds at paper yesterday. Loaded up some MKII brass with some commercial 200g hard cast SWC .452 in front of 3.2 grain of bullseye. Shooting was standing both hands at 20 yards. Got a few fliers but the ones that did connect to paper were a little low(I'll blame the load as I don't think I was flinching) but generally grouped well under 3 inches.

I thought the lead might be a little undersized but the barrel was really clean and I observed no leading at all. Overall the 3.2 grains of bullseye seemed like a very mild smokeless load and was easy shooting with relatively mild report, certainly no indications of excessive pressure on the spent rounds. I won't get a chance to chrony this load until it's warmer but I am going to guess it's around sub 500ft/sec. I did seem to get quite a bit of unburned powder "spitting" in my face. I'm not sure what that was all about as I use a similar load in my Colt 41LC and it does not seem to do that. Regardless, I am glad I wore my shooting specs.

Got my RCBS 265 grain hollow base round nose bullet mould the other day looking forward to casting a few in softer and larger lead (.454 )in the next couple of weeks to see if I can minimize the flier activity.

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Went to the outdoor range today to try a variety of loadings with bullseye and unique using the 265 grain bullets dropped from a RCBS RNHB mould. I made up two batches of bullets one in 30:1 lead/tin and second in pure lead, both sized to .454, and were tumbled lubed with liquid alox. I did not crimp the rounds thinking they would stay in place with friction like in my modern 45acp pistol. I was wrong , it appears they need crimping as I had a couple of bullets shake loose in the cylinder from the bigger bangs.

I loaded up several cases with bullseye 3.5 and 3.8 grain and unique 3.7, 3.9 and 4.2 grain. I was shooting sitting, gun on a supported rest, temp was -4 degree C. Turned out after much trial and error I realized both versions of lead softness had negligible effect on accuracy and neither produced any leading concerns. 3.5 grain of Bullseye gave me the correct point of aim elevation. Alternatively, 4.2 grain of Unique also gave me correct point of aim elevation with this weight of bullet. Took me nearly a 100 rounds to realize what I had previously attributed as fliers were in fact not a problem with the loads or the lead but rather the gun itself. It seems I have windage issue, everything was shooting 10 inches to the left of point of aim at a 25 yard target. When I figured out how to compensate for the windage the bullets would plop within 2-3 inches of each other. The gun is otherwise mechanically perfect with good action, a clean barrel and sharp rifling.

Here is a good question for all you experienced gentleman - how does one adjust lateral windage on a fixed sights gun?
Or maybe I am expecting too much from this elderly gent?


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loogie33 said:
what year was that revolver made in?
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I understand MK1 went into service in 1887 and MKII around 1894-1895. My MKII has several WD (war department ) markings which I understand were last applied in 1895. The serial number is on the low end of the series (~40000-80000)for MKII so this Webley MKII was an early production likely made somewhere between 1894-1895. There is a single arsenal * mark ( indicating a factory bore flaw) on the barrel/topstrap which has a matching serial number to frame and NP(nitroproofed) mark likely indicating a return to service around the turn of the century, likely to take advantage of cordite MKII ammunition that hit the military scene in 1897. There are several 89s with a crown above them -not sure what these mean. I sure some of the Webley experts can chime in on the signifigance of the markings or more accuracy on the details.

I just noticed one of Grant's posts - seems cordite loaded MKI ammunition was available in 1894 so it's possible the nitroproof mark could still associated to that period.
 
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Yup, that's weird. You seem to be stringing them horizontally but the elevation is great.

Is the horizontal stringing caused by barrel heat maybe?
 
Glenfilthie said:
Yup, that's weird. You seem to be stringing them horizontally but the elevation is great.

Is the horizontal stringing caused by barrel heat maybe?
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I suppose that could be possible but I was seeing the lateral movement at the beginning of the session also. I had a aquaintenance who is a very good pistol shooter and he reproduced the same results.

I understand when SAA Colts had this problem a gunsmith would whack the barrel with a hammer in the direction of the deviation to correct windage. Since the the topstrap and barrel are one piece on the Webley I can't see this as a good solution. I think I am going to try building up the sight laterally with some electrical tape to see how much movement of the sight would be required. This might be a resonable temp solution as I am not interested in doing a bubba job on an otherwise fine revolver.
 
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Did some more shooting indoors last night. For the hell of it I loaded up some wheel weight 200g SWC(Lee mould) bullets sized to .452 in front of 4.2 grain of Unique (crimped with OAL 1.06) I had lying around to feed my 45 auto.
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It had a light report with occasional signs of ununburnt powder but they shot nearly perfect point of aim, got a couple of bullseyes and most were falling within a 6 inch group at 25 yards. Even my wife who hardly shoots was hitting paper. It seems it's not my gun afterall. I will have to pick up a mould to try the Keith Style bullets or stick with the lighter bullet with perhaps 4.4 grain of unique.
 
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Apu:

Regarding the gun shooting off to the side. Stick to simple fixes. A different bullet may have solved the issue. I'm not there to observe you, but if you have to much finger on the trigger, and/or are snapping the trigger you might well be pulling the barrel over as you are moving the trigger to the rear....
 
It seems like all my webley 265g RNHB soft lead .454 sized bullets regardless of smokeless load are shooting to the left to some degree. I recently tried 5g of unique with this bullet in the MKII case OAL 1.27 as this amount seems to be commonly floating around other boards. This was a hot load, little too hot for me and certainly not for the limp wristed. Have heard from another kind member with similar experience and received some edification that the left shooting concern is not uncommon.

So far my most accurate load that shoots point of aim is a 200g semi wad cutter in wheel weight lead from Lee mould sized to .452 in front of 4.5g of unique OAL 1.05 in MKII brass. This load shoots with authority but is not punishing on your hands. The following are some before and after shots of this round. It hit the backstop hard and retained pretty much most of it's weight, rifling is clear and deep. Looks like this may be my official target load/bullet for this gun.


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Loaded up some 255 grain FN 452 bullets to 1.10 OAL with 4.4 grain unique for next range visit, shown next to the Webley RNHB 265 grain bullet and 200 grain SWC.

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Well finally got a chance to chrony my loads. I was a little surprised.

With an ambient temp at 18 degrees C, 4.9 grains of Unique pushing either the 265 grain RNHB bullets or my current favourite the 255 grain (cowboy) FN bullet in the shorter Hornady/Fiocchi MKII Brass OAL 1.27 and 1.10 respectively produced a average 540 ft/sec. Using the longer Dominion brass with same OAL slowed it down to around 500 ft/sec. Seems my previous experience of the 265g bullet feeling hot with 5 grain of Unique was likely more related the fact some of my cast bullets ended up being heavier than I thought due to a funky hollow base mould.

My unscientific poplar penetration test yeilded only 1/2-1 inches of penetration so this load is fairly anemic for anything other than paper(it won't kill a tree :) ). Unfortunately it also appears that anything much more than 4.5-5 grains of Unique will have the bullets print higher than point of aim at 20 yards.

So in summary 4.5-5 grain of Unique with your typical 455 bullets seems to be a pleasant point of aim target paper puncher but not much more. Next opportunity I get I will try to chrony one of my original factory 455 Dominion rounds and try to careful workup a load that approximates the original spec ~600ft/sec rounds

In order of appearance 265g RNHB bullet MKII brass, 255g FN Bullet MKII Brass, 255g RB in Dominion MKI brass and just for fun 350g FN 50/70 (heck it's from same period)

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Now, THERE's the cartridge that Philip Webley missed out on!

But it is a beautiful old gun and it is really trying, it really is.

So nice to see one still out there and being looked after.

Have fun!
 
apu said:
My unscientific poplar penetration test yeilded only 1/2-1 inches of penetration so this load is fairly anemic for anything other than paper(it won't kill a tree :) ). Unfortunately it also appears that anything much more than 4.5-5 grains of Unique will have the bullets print higher than point of aim at 20 yards.

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I had my WG out last weekend and was also surpised at the poor penetration. Using full-length .45 Schofield cases, 220gr RN bullets and 4.5gr Unique I was shooting 4" below target. The bullets penetrated about 1/2" or 3/4" into dry hardwood. Two of the bullets seem to have bounced off a branch behind my target and were found lying, undeformed, on the ground!

Let me know what loads you come up with..
 
braun said:
I had my WG out last weekend and was also surpised at the poor penetration. Using full-length .45 Schofield cases, 220gr RN bullets and 4.5gr Unique I was shooting 4" below target. The bullets penetrated about 1/2" or 3/4" into dry hardwood. Two of the bullets seem to have bounced off a branch behind my target and were found lying, undeformed, on the ground!

Let me know what loads you come up with..
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Since the case volume of the Schofield is greater than even the MKI cases I am going to guess with 4.5 grain of Unique you are probably well under 500 ft/sec.
 
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