pre 64 M70's - "The Rifleman's Rifle" - FYI

R

Rod

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The latest interest here in pre 64 Model 70's has steered me back from S&W and Colt handguns to where I'm dusting off my favorite firearms again, the pre 64 Model 70.

I've gone back a few years and found an article I'd wrote, that has become part of sticky elsewhere, that may be of interest to some. I originally wrote it in response to establishing what a pre 64 M70 is worth. I've copied and pasted it FYI.

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(Quote) -- A gun is worth what it'll sell for, but to help determine it's value, check out Guns International, Guns America for what folks are asking and www.gunbroker.com to see what people have bid and paid. To position a gun within the parameters of it's potential value, three factors are usually considered:

1. Rarity
2. Originality
3. Condition (NRA Grading System)

With M70's the term "correct" means a lot. If the gun is not in original condition; eg. reblued, refinished, stock cut and pad added, or any non-factory alterations, the gun's rating goes to 'Fair Condition" no matter how fine a shape it's in. Most pre-64 M70's came with a checkered steel buttplate. Around 1959 to 1960 the plastic checkered buttplate began to filter in and by 1961 was pretty much standard. 375's mainly came standard with pads as did Westerners and Alaskans. The 264 Westerner came with a plastic buttplate and was the only featherweight available with a recoil pad. Winchester began using the vented pad around 1961 but some solid red Winchester pads were still used. Winchester was famous for "Running Changes". Also, solid red pads can be factory correct on a special order gun.

Pre-war models are worth a premium over post war, and Super Grades are worth about a 100% premium over Standard Grades.

Winchester made around 581,400 M70's between 1936 and 1963. When Winchester geared up for WWII, they stamped the last receiver around 52,000, continuing after the War ended.

1. Rarity -- caliber and model
2. Originality -- has it been messed with or still original
3. Condition -- NRA website, condition from NIB to Poor.

Some examples of rarity:

30-06 / 208,000 --- 270 / 122,000 --- 243 / 43,600 --- 308 /41,100 --- 300 H&H / 37,100 --- 257 Robs / 14,600 --- 375 H&H / 14,000 --- 338 / 9,500 --- 250-3000 /2750 --- 7mm / 1,470 --- 300 Sav / 362 --- 220 Swift / 19,750 --- 22 Hornet / 20,100 --- 264 win mag / 24,000

Some of the different models are: Standard Grade - Super Grade - Standard Featherweight - Super Grade Featherweight - Carbine - National Match - Target Grade - Varminter - Gopher Special - Bull Gun - and Special Order Guns.

Hope this helps you some.

Regards:
Rod
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Rod said:
Some examples of rarity:

30-06 / 208,000 --- 270 / 122,000 --- 243 / 43,600 --- 308 /41,100 --- 300 H&H / 37,100 --- 257 Robs / 14,600 --- 375 H&H / 14,000 --- 338 / 9,500 --- 250-3000 /2750 --- 7mm / 1,470 --- 300 Sav / 362 --- 220 Swift / 19,750 --- 22 Hornet / 20,100 --- 264 win mag / 24,000

Hope this helps you some.

Regards:
Rod
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What about the 458WM and the 35 REM?;)
If you have spares I need the 7MM,35 Rem and 300 Savage

Meanea
 
:) . . Yes, your correct, there are more than what I listed as Some Examples . .

Roger Rule mentions some rarities in his book, such as 30 WCF, 35 Whelen, 7.65 M/M, 9 M/M, 222 REM.

Some other reported Non-standard Chamberings are 7.92 MAUSER, 22 Wilson Arrow, 225 Win, 240 Apex, 240 Page, 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, 280 Ross, 284 Win, 7.65x53 mm, 303 British, 7.92x57 mm, 348 Win, 9x57, 405 Win, 416 Rigby

The finely engraved models are highly sought after as well, including the ones inlaid with gold and German silver. And then there's the one that has the presentation plate that reads "H.R.H Prince Jean of Luxemburg . . From John F. Kennedy . . President Of The United States Of America . . April, 1963"

Rod
 
If you are a Win Pre-64 collector you must get the new printing of "THE RIFLEMANS RIFLE" by Roger Rule, If anyone wants to order this book ,it is available directly from the author, he is great to deal with and there is no trouble for him to ship it directly to you here in Canada. I recieved about the 10th copy of the reprint with the authors signiture for around $100 US plus shipping. PM me if you can't find his email adress, Dale in T-Bay
 
I would dispute the contention that a rifle that has been altered "eg. reblued, refinished, stock cut and pad added, or any non-factory alterations" would automatically be declared of "Fair" condition. As the OP stated, the price of a Model 70 is hugely dependent on the originality of the rifle. The price for a modified (even slightly) M70 decreases to the point that the price in the "Fair" column of the Blue Book might seem generous, however I think that to automatically classify a Model 70 that has been altered as "Fair" would be irresponsible.

For example, there may be a guy out there that wants a "Pre-64" but can't afford a pristine example. He may happen on one that started life as a 300 H&H that some Philistine reamed to 300 Wby. The rifle could be in excellent condition due to a refinish and refresh on the stock, but only be deemed to be 30% original. In a situation like this I believe that a seller would not be remiss to advertise the rifle as being in "excellent" condition, [provided that he openly and plainly disclose that the rifle was no longer in anything resembling original condition. I believe that a rifle such as this would still sell for $500-$600 but that is a far cry from what you could get for an original condition M70 in 300 H&H.

I think that's what the OP was trying to say - originality of a Model 70 is more important that the actual condition. Without originality all you have is a shooter or, perish the thought, a donor.
 
My outlook on rifles is simple. If I am not prepared to drag it out into the big, bad world to actually use it, and heaven forbid, risk damaging it, I don't want it.
 
Toomanyguns said:
My outlook on rifles is simple. If I am not prepared to drag it out into the big, bad world to actually use it, and heaven forbid, risk damaging it, I don't want it.
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Jack_Handy said:
“Sometimes life seems like a dream, especially when I look down and see that I forgot to put on my pants”
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I am going to start adding your quotes to Jacks list TMG ;). Did you ever do any writing for SNL?

:D
 
interesting stuff, but if you have a copy of Rules book, you will discover that the 222 remington was never offered in the pre 64 model 70 . ( post 64 model 70's, yes ) Some of the more esoteric calibres listed, like the 225 winchester????? have me wondering as well,simply because calibre introduction date would " rule " it out.. no pun intended :)
 
Good post Rod, thanks for the info. I guess this is as good a place as any to say I finally got into the Model 70 club. I have been collecting Winchesters for a while now, but for whatever reason, the Mod 70 wasn't on the list.

Well as with anything, the seed was planted the day a friend brought his Dad's 1950 Mod 70 with a Weaver K4 scope on Weaver pivot mounts out hunting. I managed to avoid the temptation for a year, but then when it bit, I couldn't find anything.

My needs were satisfied at the Calgary Gun Show this Easter where I bought a nice wooded 1950 vintage in 30-06 from an old chap.

Fun guns, I don't need anything else.

win70right.jpg


win70left.jpg
 
jsmurd said:
interesting stuff, but if you have a copy of Rules book, you will discover that the 222 remington was never offered in the pre 64 model 70 . ( post 64 model 70's, yes ) Some of the more esoteric calibres listed, like the 225 winchester????? have me wondering as well,simply because calibre introduction date would " rule " it out.. no pun intended :)
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jsmurd:

:) Read page 264 and you may discover the .222 Remington was offerred in the last listings in Featherweight and is very much a possibilty. A rare one indeed.

The 222 Remington would be the ultimate find in Model 70 rarity. (Quote) "The possibility of a Featherweight in .222 Remington is suggested in the last listings, no examples or evidence has been found".(Quote)

Roger Rule mentions the 222 Remington under "Special Orders" - - "Non-Standard Chamberings".

Also on pg. 264 . (Quote) .The roll die reads "MODEL 70 - FEATHERWEIGHT - 222 REM." . . Die Number 33933-1396, Date: June 16, 1960, Manufacturer was: Noble and Westbrook. .(Quote)

Also on pg. 264, as listed and offerred by Winchester, pre 64, Under "Reported Non - Standard Chamberings", is ".225 Win." Even though the official introduction date of this cartridge was 1964, Winchester tested this cartridge as a possible replacement for the 220 Swift by offerring it as a "Non - Standard Chambering" for the pre 64 Model 70.

Some of the "Non - Standard Chamberings: are so rare and even though they were listed, some examples today have not been found. Some of these rare listed chamberings by Winchester, in their Pre 64 M70, have been currently found and verified and Rule marks them with an asterisk. Pg. 264.

Winchester offerred and listed these rare chamberings as available for the pre 64 Model 70 and if one was to be found in excellent condition, or even better NIB, and verified as the real deal; who knows what the market would bear.

What keeps some collectors interested is the hopes of someday finding one of these real rare rarities in an old closet, attic or chest somewhere. . :)

Regards:
Rod
 
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Bittermansbro:

Good for you on a good looking Model 70. There's beauty in simplicity and it's nice to see an original pre 64 Model 70 like yours. Very nice stock, the fiddleback looks great. 1950 was a good year. . :)

Regards:
Rod
 
I just bought a '61-ish standard grade .30-06. Any thoughts as to what I need for a durable optics set up (bases, rings, and scope). I'd like to stay under $800.00 total cost. I would also like to retain a period correct look to the gun (I don't want a fat scope). Lastly, any things to watch out for, ie are bases hard to find that fit the original screw holes? Thanks.
I almost forgot to add that I won't be taking shots past 225 yds.
 
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International Harvester said:
I just bought a '61-ish standard grade .30-06. Any thoughts as to what I need for a durable optics set up (bases, rings, and scope). I'd like to stay under $800.00 total cost. I would also like to retain a period correct look to the gun (I don't want a fat scope). Lastly, any things to watch out for, ie are bases hard to find that fit the original screw holes? Thanks.
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the Pre-64's, except the H&H's and a few NM models, use the same bases as post 64's

if you want decent performance and period correct look, redfield or leupold two piece bases and a Leupold M8 4x28 would be hard to beat.
 
BigUglyMan said:
I would dispute the contention that a rifle that has been altered "eg. reblued, refinished, stock cut and pad added, or any non-factory alterations" would automatically be declared of "Fair" condition. As the OP stated, the price of a Model 70 is hugely dependent on the originality of the rifle. The price for a modified (even slightly) M70 decreases to the point that the price in the "Fair" column of the Blue Book might seem generous, however I think that to automatically classify a Model 70 that has been altered as "Fair" would be irresponsible.
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blue book is about defining a price point. They aren't classifying a 99% rifle with a white-line vented recoil pad added as a 'fair condition gun', they are classifying such a rifle as being of similar value to an unmodified rifle in fair condition.
 
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