338LM vs 338LAI

BigUglyMan said:
True, but you can't drive a 300gr SMK at 3000 FPS with a 300 WM. Apparently they're deer slayers par excellence. My 300 WM with a 29" barrel will drive a 208 AMax at 2950 (2980 at a half grain over max but I'm abandoning that load as a bad idea - why do I need more than 2950?) which should get you from 100 to 1000 yards with 29 minutes of elevation and an arrival speed of 1578 FPS and 1150 FtLb of energy (theoretical as I have never shot the rifle that far yet). The 338 L.Imp should get you there in 25 minutes and an arrival speed of around 1800 FPS and 2100 FtLb of energy (again theoretical). But even at 1000 yards you'll be glad to have the speed and energy of the L.Imp if what you're trying to do is make a beastie reside in your deep freeze.
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Ya! Ya! I own a few big 338s....Trying to save the kid some money. :p

Besides, I'm not talking to you any more Africa Boy! :D
 
BigUglyMan said:
True, but you can't drive a 300gr SMK at 3000 FPS with a 300 WM. Apparently they're deer slayers par excellence. My 300 WM with a 29" barrel will drive a 208 AMax at 2950 (2980 at a half grain over max but I'm abandoning that load as a bad idea - why do I need more than 2950?) which should get you from 100 to 1000 yards with 29 minutes of elevation and an arrival speed of 1578 FPS and 1150 FtLb of energy (theoretical as I have never shot the rifle that far yet). The 338 L.Imp should get you there in 25 minutes and an arrival speed of around 1800 FPS and 2100 FtLb of energy (again theoretical). But even at 1000 yards you'll be glad to have the speed and energy of the L.Imp if what you're trying to do is make a beastie reside in your deep freeze.
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Aaaah Your calculation is slightly incorrect.
My 338LAI sends the 300 gr SMKs down range at 3050 fps which gives muzzle energy of 6200 ftlbs
I need 19.0 moa to make the 300 gr SMKs hit the 1/2 moa steel gongs consistantly at 1000 yards. The bullet is still travelling at 2032 FPS at 1000 and it has 2751 FTLBs at 1000 yards.
AND with 25 reloads to date with NO trimming, brass life greatly exceeds any other caliber I shoot:D

Yup it does put beasties in the infamous freezer:D
 
X-fan said:
You wont see longer case life as the regular Lapua lasts a long time anyway, but you wont have to trim as often.

You will waste a lot of time and money fireforming the brass.
If this is about saving money the 338s are not for you.

FWIW A 7mag with a 180 Berger will accomplish the same thing.
A 300Win with a 208A-Max is pretty darned close as well.
Both of these are 1/2 the shooting cost of the 338s.
Something to think about.
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This is not at all the case. Non improved 338 Lapua using Lapua casings tend to only get 12 to 15 reloading before cases crack from the brass flowing towards the neck and being trimmed off every 3 to 4 reloadings.
This is a common problem with all cartridges that have 10 degrees or more of body taper and shoulder of 20 degrees.

Fireforming does not have to be either expensive or have any effect on the barrel life if a small charge of pistol powder and some COW is employed as no bullet is then used, but perfect fireformed cases are the result with zero barrel wear.
I fireformed 200 casings for my 338 LAI with a net cost of under $10.00


The difference in cost between 72.5 grains of H4831 versus 111.5 grains of US 869 per cartridge is $.03 more for the 338LA.
The cost difference between a 208 Amax and a 300 gr SMK is under $.05, so taking the cost of brass into account the 338 is slightly more expensive to shoot than a 300 win mag at the initail purchase, but in the long run it works out to about $.10 more to shoot the 338 per shot.
The performance between the 338LAI and the other calibers you mention is day and night, the 338 wins hands down.
That being said paper really does not know the difference or care.
I just thought I should set the record straight.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
This is not at all the case. Non improved 338 Lapua using Lapua casings tend to only get 12 to 15 reloading before cases crack from the brass flowing towards the neck and being trimmed off every 3 to 4 reloadings.
This is a common problem with all cartridges that have 10 degrees or more of body taper and shoulder of 20 degrees.

Fireforming does not have to be either expensive or have any effect on the barrel life if a small charge of pistol powder and some COW is employed as no bullet is then used, but perfect fireformed cases are the result with zero barrel wear.
I fireformed 200 casings for my 338 LAI with a net cost of under $10.00


The difference in cost between 72.5 grains of H4831 versus 111.5 grains of US 869 per cartridge is $.03 more for the 338LA.
The cost difference between a 208 Amax and a 300 gr SMK is under $.05, so taking the cost of brass into account the 338 is slightly more expensive to shoot than a 300 win mag at the initail purchase, but in the long run it works out to about $.10 more to shoot the 338 per shot.
The performance between the 338LAI and the other calibers you mention is day and night, the 338 wins hands down.
That being said paper really does not know the difference or care.
I just thought I should set the record straight.
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All very good info. I asked you before but cant remember your answer, so where does the 338Edge fall into place along side the 338LM & 338LAI
 
retepnosflow said:
All very good info. I asked you before but cant remember your answer, so where does the 338Edge fall into place along side the 338LM & 338LAI
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The Edge, which is 300 RUM necked out to 338 fits right along side the standard 338 Lapua for velocity and energy or at least within about 50 FPS in my experiences.
The downside with the Edge is brass. The crap Remington makes for brass makes for either ALOT of case prep and culling or the requirement to use Nosler brass which is consistant but very soft. You will get far more reloads from either Lapua chambering than you will an Edge.
The biggest advantage the Edge has is that it can be built on a standard magnum boltface action. The Lapua has a much larger boltface so requires either bolt replacement, or modification (not a good plan) or the use of a custom action.
 
Theory is that the lesser taper and sharper shoulder angles prevent as much brass movement as the std cartridges. Less brass movement = less lengthening = less trimming = longer case life. Keep in mind for some of these cartridges, we are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. As mentioned, 338 Lapua brass will last a long time regardless, and it isn't a cartridge for the financially fainthearted anyway. FWIW - dan
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
This is not at all the case. Non improved 338 Lapua using Lapua casings tend to only get 12 to 15 reloading before cases crack from the brass flowing towards the neck and being trimmed off every 3 to 4 reloadings.
This is a common problem with all cartridges that have 10 degrees or more of body taper and shoulder of 20 degrees.

Fireforming does not have to be either expensive or have any effect on the barrel life if a small charge of pistol powder and some COW is employed as no bullet is then used, but perfect fireformed cases are the result with zero barrel wear.
I fireformed 200 casings for my 338 LAI with a net cost of under $10.00
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Using wholesale Sports pricing the 30 cal 200SMk is 42.00 per 100 box.
The .338 300gr SMK is $41.99 per box of 50.
Add a few cents for powder and the cost is pretty well double.

The Amax bullets are a higher quality level and thus price point.
If Hornady ever makes an .338 A-Max at a comparable price to the 208 you will have a point, but they do not.
Apples and bananas.

I am well aware of the COW forming process and have never got "perfectly" formed cases from this process...Not even close. The only way I have ever seen perfect cases is after I fire a bullet.
The cow process is messy PITA.

Your initial point trails off, but I assume you are going to suggest you can get more than 15 firings from your improved case?
I suppose that is might be good for some, but my brass hits the dumpster well before then...I don't care whose name is on the stamp.
 
X-fan said:
Using wholesale Sports pricing the 30 cal 200SMk is 42.00 per 100 box.
The .338 300gr SMK is $41.99 per box of 50.
Add a few cents for powder and the cost is pretty well double.

The Amax bullets are a higher quality level and thus price point.
If Hornady ever makes an .338 A-Max at a comparable price to the 208 you will have a point, but they do not.
Apples and bananas.

I am well aware of the COW forming process and have never got "perfectly" formed cases from this process...Not even close. The only way I have ever seen perfect cases is after I fire a bullet.
The cow process is messy PITA.

Your initial point trails off, but I assume you are going to suggest you can get more than 15 firings from your improved case?
I suppose that is might be good for some, but my brass hits the dumpster well before then...I don't care whose name is on the stamp.
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Yup I messed up, I forgot that 300 gr SMKs only come 50 to a box, so you are correct there. I buy them in boxes of 500 only.
I agree that the Hornady bullets look nicer and in some cases are better bullets. I speaking with Hornadys tech guys at SHOT show they are working on a 338 Amax, they feel 285 grains is optimum. Hopefully in 2011 we will see these.
COW method does make a mess, I fireform on windy days and in the middle of a field and let mother nature clean up for me.
Establishing a charge is hard part, once you figure out how many grains of powder to get a fully formed case it is simple and with some size wax I get perfectly formed cases. I found size wax makes a huge improvement when fireforming cases.

I have as well as many others who shoot the 338LAIs I have built, got 20 plus reloading from each casing. My own rifles brass has 25 reloadings and shows no signs of failure. Many Improved calibers exhibit this trait of exceedingly long brass life.

Thanks for bringing my screw up to my attention, it was not my intent to mislead. I believe in posting the facts too:redface:
 
Curious what you mean about size wax when FF with COW Rick?
Too many acronyms there. :)

25 reloads is pretty impressive.
How often to you anneal?

Good news on a 338 A-Max...Though getting almost any Hornady is a ##### these days.

Not a screw up...Rather an honest mistake...Nobodys perfect.
I like having guys like you around keeping us both challenged and informed.

Cheers
 
X-fan said:
Curious what you mean about size wax when FF with COW Rick?
Too many acronyms there. :)
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You stick some tissue in the case mouth and seal it with some wax or vaseline. Once you get the charge right, you will end up with perfectly sized cases from pistol powder, COW, tissue, and the vaseline.

Basically Ken Howells method.

At leas that is what I think he is talking about.
 
X-fan said:
Curious what you mean about size wax when FF with COW Rick?
Too many acronyms there. :)

25 reloads is pretty impressive.
How often to you anneal?

Good news on a 338 A-Max...Though getting almost any Hornady is a ##### these days.

Not a screw up...Rather an honest mistake...Nobodys perfect.
I like having guys like you around keeping us both challenged and informed.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Redding and Imperial make a "sizing" wax that is supposed to be used for resizing casings in reloading dies. Basically a very clean sizing lube.
I found on advice from a smarter friend that a light coating of sizing wax on the casing during fireforming gives a much better formed casing.

I modified the Cream Of Wheat method by in the case of the 338LAI using 23 gr of Bluedot powder, filling to the neck with C.O.W. and then pushing the casing into a solid block of parafin wax as used for preserving can goods, it held the C.O.W in place against the powder charge, the advantage of this over tissue is zero chance of a kaboom and not as messy as vaseline.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Redding and Imperial make a "sizing" wax that is supposed to be used for resizing casings in reloading dies. Basically a very clean sizing lube.
I found on advice from a smarter friend that a light coating of sizing wax on the casing during fireforming gives a much better formed casing.

I modified the Cream Of Wheat method by in the case of the 338LAI using 23 gr of Bluedot powder, filling to the neck with C.O.W. and then pushing the casing into a solid block of parafin wax as used for preserving can goods, it held the C.O.W in place against the powder charge, the advantage of this over tissue is zero chance of a kaboom and not as messy as vaseline.
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I wondered if you were talking about lubing the outside of the case.
One of the problems I have had with fireforming is the case sticking to the walls causing a slightly oblong shoulder or neck....Anybody that doubts this should spin a case on a v-block while running a fine marker around the case in the areas to be blown out. You will often see weird patterns in the markings after the fireform.

Great idea Rick.

So how often do you anneal?
 
X-fan said:
I wondered if you were talking about lubing the outside of the case.
One of the problems I have had with fireforming is the case sticking to the walls causing a slightly oblong shoulder or neck....Anybody that doubts this should spin a case on a v-block while running a fine marker around the case in the areas to be blown out. You will often see weird patterns in the markings after the fireform.

Great idea Rick.

So how often do you anneal?
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I had the same problem until my buddy advised me to lube the casings, then never a problem again.

Fireforming Lapua brass only I have not had to anneal as it is annealed from factory.
As for re-annealing after several shootings, I have not done so on the 338LAI, mostly out of curiousity as to how many shootings it will take before the necks crack.
I found that without a well made annealing wheel I had more casualties from the re-annealing on other calibers that I experimented with.
An annealing wheel is the answer for sure, on some of the calibers I shoot I do re-anneal every 3rd shooting.
 
I've been waiting for a good anneal wheel system to show up on the market...If you aren't busy enough you could offer them Rick! :p

Thanks for the FF pointers.

cheers
 
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