Poly M305 Vanilla Accuracy?

Wallaback

Wallaback

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Hey everybody!

I purchased a 2009 Poly M305 a while back and, while I hardly did any shooting with it so far, I've read up on it on this site a bunch, as some of you might know.

That aside, while I've read a lot about people accuratizing, bedding and otherwise improving their M305s, I've been wondering what kind of accuracy I should expect from my (internally) completely vanilla Poly M305 using basic 150gr Federal Ammo.
(I'm currently a near-broke student, so please don't burn on me for being cheap)

I know I'm not the best shot, but I'd be curious to know how much is my bad aim and how much is just tolerable inaccuracy for my rifle at 100 yards.

Thanks in advance to everybody!



PS: I've seen that a lot of people like to replace their spring-guide. Seems like a relatively cheap thing to do, but how much of a difference does that really make?
 
Mine is great i use the iron sites and its dead on at 200 feet. I just put a scope on it but haven't had time to take it out .Also changing the spring -guide i hear makes it smoother but i haven't changed mine yet
 
Wallaback said:
PS: I've seen that a lot of people like to replace their spring-guide. Seems like a relatively cheap thing to do, but how much of a difference does that really make?
Click to expand...

Notable difference. Read the stickies in the MBR forum. There are a lot of relatively inexpensive tune-ups to improve on your rifle's accuracy. You will be surprised at how accurate these rifles can be with just a little elbow grease and some basic drop-in mods.

Good luck.
 
The spring guide is probably the best mod you can do that costs money in terms of bang for buck.

Another is USGI sights IF your Norinco sights (like most) are garbage. Install a USGI set, either M1 or M14.

An easy and cheap one is to shim the gas system so the gas lock indexes and the gas port lines up.

Other cheap (e.g. FREE!) mods include:

- remove your o-rod guide, peen the pin channel edges over and peen points all over the bearing surface to tighten up the fit, then re-install the oprod guide. I like to use a little blue loctite in the interface as well - just make sure you use a dead blow hammer (like lead or rawhide) to persuade it into alignment so the oprod is centered on the gas piston before the loctite sets.
- lightly peen the splines for the gas cylinder.
- Break the welds on your flash hider and remove it, peen the splines, re-install.
- find a buddy with a barrel vise and M14 wrench or go to a M14 clinic and properly index your barrel.
- If you keep your Chinese bolt, get some valve grinding compound and lap the lugs to your receiver.
- IF you know what you're doing, stone the trigger and sear engagements and hammer hooks to improve trigger pull.
 
Sand down your stock at the front behind the ferul to make sure there is no contact between the gas system and the stock. To test - with rifle assembled lay rifle sights down - grab the barrel with your fingers and with your thumbs press down on the stock just behing the steel ferul- the stock should bend in towards the barrel and snap back when you let go with some pressure against the ferul. Put a dab of grease where the little hooked piece clips over the ferul steel of the stock. This mod did a bit for accuracy with mine and only took me 20 min, the grease in this location helps the gas system re-set back to its orignal place as the barrel kicks and looses contact with the stock.
 
Mr.4x4 said:
Sand down your stock at the front behind the ferul to make sure there is no contact between the gas system and the stock. To test - with rifle assembled lay rifle sights down - grab the barrel with your fingers and with your thumbs press down on the stock just behing the steel ferul- the stock should bend in towards the barrel and snap back when you let go with some pressure against the ferul. Put a dab of grease where the little hooked piece clips over the ferul steel of the stock. This mod did a bit for accuracy with mine and only took me 20 min, the grease in this location helps the gas system re-set back to its orignal place as the barrel kicks and looses contact with the stock.
Click to expand...

great point :D

one thing i am noticing on the new chinese plastic stocks is that there is no gap between the gas band and the nose of the stock ferrule. This causes massive pressure against the barrel during recoil and as your barrel heats up..... POI will start to wander all over the place. the gap should be optimally 15 thou.
to resolve this , gently pry the stock ferrule from the tip of your stock. Use a file and remove 15 to 20 thou from the plastic at the U shaped nose and you will also need to relieve the stock itself where it meets the ferrule. a small dremel stone bit is used to gently enlarge the pockets that the ferrule crimps engage.
install the ferrule and check the gap.... do you see daylight...... good..... now apply epoxy paste and re install the ferrule, keeping it's face, 90 degrees to the stocks top plane. use a small punch to gently tap the ferrule crimps back down, wipe away any excess epoxy paste and recheck the ferrule is 90 degrees to the top plane and allow to set till the next day.
This alone, is a good thing to check as if present in your rifle, you are NOT going to see any improvements in accuracy , regardless of other mods, no matter how free or expensive they are.
 
Good point. I have a Chinese plastic stock I don't use for this very reason. Probably I should fix it and put it back into service as a backup.
 
Thanks a lot to everyone who has answered so far, feel free to keep them coming! :D

That aside, I've looked around a little bit for an OpRod, but the only one I've found so far is the National Match one from Fabsports, but that one doesn't fit with the standard M305 spring.
Any recommendations?
 
Claven2 said:
- find a buddy with a barrel vise and M14 wrench or go to a M14 clinic and properly index your barrel.
- If you keep your Chinese bolt, get some valve grinding compound and lap the lugs to your receiver.
Click to expand...
Uh these 2 I would pass on.
If you can't get to a m14 clinic to check the headspace or contact the Guru Hungry I would even atempt to lap the lug's as many people in Canada have seen really excesive head space from the older Norinco's. Now as for the indexing of a barrel, again if I couldn't get out to a clinic I would not even atempt to do this as you won't know for sure how off you are and what the proper way of doing such a proceedure is.
The best thing I can recomend you to do is to blast of a couple of rounds and PM Hungry & see if wouldn't mind mic'ing the brass. This will tell you what your next step is. As to wether or not to see if it is safe to shoot or if you lucked out and got match head space straight from the factory as I did on 1 of my m14's.
Next would be to take the out the trigger assembely and dry fire it threw an entire hockey game like Hungry's cheap trigger job. Not only will it smooth out the machining marks but will also give you great pratice on the trigger with out spending the money on ammo.
Then I would get an op-rod guide from either from Sean @ Rauch Tactical or Rob @ Tartain Tactical. As Claven2 says it is the best bang for the buck. I prefer Rob's op-rod but lately he has been a hard guy to get a hold of but damm there nice;) plus they fit right into the stock Norinco springs perfectly.
Then either attend a clinic or a range and get shooting;)
 
Wallaback said:
Thanks a lot to everyone who has answered so far, feel free to keep them coming! :D

That aside, I've looked around a little bit for an OpRod, but the only one I've found so far is the National Match one from Fabsports, but that one doesn't fit with the standard M305 spring.
Any recommendations?
Click to expand...

oprods are a different animal all together
what you need is an "oprod spring guide rod" of the NM variety
marstar
Rauch Tactical
both will fit your chinese spring.
and a tartan tactical if you can find one..... try S& hardware, a dealer on this site
if you go with a M1A oprod spring...... then a SADLAK NM guide rod is an excellent top shelf choice and is my personal favorite of them all. ;)


as for lapping of lugs....... let's leave advice like that off the internet.......
also, modifications to your trigger group, should not be attempted unless you clearly understand what you are doing. WAY too many armchair gunsmiths out there getting it wrong...... trust me, it's one of the reasons i started my business ;)

you can check for even lug bearing with a felt pen the welfare way by covering the backs of the lugs and using your thumb underneath inside the receiver near the bolt tail to apply gentle pressure up, rotate the bolt fully closed then up to an 1/8" of lug travel open .... no more...... up and down 20 times,... then have a look at the lugs. now reason i say this is not good to go putting on the net is that it is just gonna confuse people.
to truly check for even lug bearing in any given receiver, you must strip the bolt, insert the appropriate headspace guage for your bolt/barrel so that the bolt just closes tight in the lugs. THEN we felt pen the lugs and rotate the bolt 20 times...... this will show you the lug bearing profile of your rifle. 85% is passable to 90% bearing is optimal, evenly across both lugs. This is revealed by the shiny surfaces left from the above procedure. There is also a bolt lapping tool availlable from brownells that is an esential pice of kit for those wanting to properly instal and new or serviceable bolt to a receiver, prior to barrel install and final headspace chamber reaming or further bolt lapping.

leave the bolt lapping to a professional.... you'll thank me later ;) Bolt lapping INCREASES headspace and if not done correctly can lead to permanent damge of critical edges and bearing angles of your bolt.
this is why Hungry and Myself put on clinics........ to guide folks through what will and will not make your rifle perform as best as YOU can make it and some things should either be done by a professional or under the supervision of one. ;)
 
Satain said:
Uh these 2 I would pass on.
If you can't get to a m14 clinic to check the headspace or contact the Guru Hungry I would even atempt to lap the lug's as many people in Canada have seen really excesive head space from the older Norinco's. Now as for the indexing of a barrel, again if I couldn't get out to a clinic I would not even atempt to do this as you won't know for sure how off you are and what the proper way of doing such a proceedure is.
Click to expand...

OK, I didn't think these caveats were necessary, but I guess not everyone knows this stuff instinctively.

1) The proper way to index your barrel is with a proper spec (preferably USGI or Springfield Armory Inc. or similar non-chinese flash hider on the barrel. You use a clamp to clamp a parallel (basically a 12" or so long flat steel or aluminum bar) to the top of the dovetail flat. You then clamp another to the receiver flat where the rear sight base rests (with the sight off the receiver). When you look down the length of the barrelled receiver, you should be able to see the bars are "parallel" to each other. If they are not, you need to alter your barrel's index. This should ONLY be done with a proper receiver wrench and barrel vise.

You will also have to remove the set screw the chinese (stupidly) installed beneath the oprod through the receiver ring. There is only ONE WAY to properly remove this tight screw. You need a large diameter handle hex bit screwdriver and you need to GRIND a new screwdriver bit to *JUST* fit tightly into its slot. It will then come out. Any other method will bugger the head and make removal much more difficult.

As for lapping, I would NOT recommend you lap past a field gauge for .308 Winchester. You could lap it out as far as NATO Field/Reject, but then you could only ever shoot surplus ammo - no commercial. The proper way to measure headspace is with real gauges (your gunsmith has a set) and a STRIPPED bolt.

[/disclaimers]
 
Satain said:
Then I would get an op-rod guide from either from Sean @ Rauch Tactical or Rob @ Tartain Tactical. As Claven2 says it is the best bang for the buck. I prefer Rob's op-rod but lately he has been a hard guy to get a hold of but damm there nice;) plus they fit right into the stock Norinco springs perfectly.
Click to expand...

Some other options are for sure out there. Off the top of my head:

1) Rooster33 made a LOT of these guides before he stopped making M14 stuff. I have one and it's very very nice. Works with either Norinco or GI springs (more on that later).
2) Fabsports carries Sadlak guides. These are very nice - some are used by the US military apparently.
3) Marstar brand. These work, though the one I have is not quite as smoothly finished on the shaft as some of the brand name ones. It does work though - no complaints and they are in stock and the price is right.
4) Smith Enterprises - made of rocking horse poop, ridiculous expensive, and no better than more easily located ones. But if you want to drink the Koolaid...;)
5) NEA is said to be working on an oprod spring guide. It's not released and nobody's seen one yet, so difficult to say more at this time.

Now for springs... the Norinco springs have been known to sometimes fail within a few hundred rounds. They are also smaller interior diameter than proper milspec springs. The first or second mod I do to EVERY Norinco/Poly is to either replace the guide or the spring. I prefer to use the Chrome-silicon coated GI spec springs Brownells sells as they are guaranteed to last minimum 500,000 compression cycles in an M14 or M1A. AFAIK, no other manufacturer makes them to withstand that level of duty.
 
M14Doctor said:
oprods are a different animal all together
what you need is an "oprod spring guide rod" of the NM variety
marstar
Rauch Tactical
both will fit your chinese spring.
and a tartan tactical if you can find one..... try S& hardware, a dealer on this site
if you go with a M1A oprod spring...... then a SADLAK NM guide rod is an excellent top shelf choice and is my personal favorite of them all. ;)


as for lapping of lugs....... let's leave advice like that off the internet.......
also, modifications to your trigger group, should not be attempted unless you clearly understand what you are doing. WAY too many armchair gunsmiths out there getting it wrong...... trust me, it's one of the reasons i started my business ;)

you can check for even lug bearing with a felt pen the welfare way by covering the backs of the lugs and using your thumb underneath inside the receiver near the bolt tail to apply gentle pressure up, rotate the bolt fully closed then up to an 1/8" of lug travel open .... no more...... up and down 20 times,... then have a look at the lugs. now reason i say this is not good to go putting on the net is that it is just gonna confuse people.
to truly check for even lug bearing in any given receiver, you must strip the bolt, insert the appropriate headspace guage for your bolt/barrel so that the bolt just closes tight in the lugs. THEN we felt pen the lugs and rotate the bolt 20 times...... this will show you the lug bearing profile of your rifle. 85% is passable to 90% bearing is optimal, evenly across both lugs. This is revealed by the shiny surfaces left from the above procedure. There is also a bolt lapping tool availlable from brownells that is an esential pice of kit for those wanting to properly instal and new or serviceable bolt to a receiver, prior to barrel install and final headspace chamber reaming or further bolt lapping.

leave the bolt lapping to a professional.... you'll thank me later ;) Bolt lapping INCREASES headspace and if not done correctly can lead to permanent damge of critical edges and bearing angles of your bolt.
this is why Hungry and Myself put on clinics........ to guide folks through what will and will not make your rifle perform as best as YOU can make it and some things should either be done by a professional or under the supervision of one. ;)
Click to expand...

VERY SOUND ADVICE. Especially the trigger group...unless your looking to slam fire the rifle and get kick out of the club or worse..... Some things are BEST and ONLY should be left to professionals :)
 
I would agree that a full-on trigger job should be left tothe professionals, HOWEVER, anyone can improve their trigger pull dramatically with some basic skills.

The easiest thing is to simply fire the trigger mechanism a couple-hundred times when it's out of the rifle.

the next step is to get some 800 grit wet-dry and a small 4mm file. Wrap the paper around the file and lightly polish the contacting surfaces of the hammer hooks, sear and disconnector. You are NOT trying to remove material or change any angles with this approach. The paper does the polishing, NOT the file. the file cutting edge should never touch the gun parts. All you are trying to do is rub off the parkerizing and even out the surface finish to remove the microscopic high-points left over from when the parts were bead blasted at the factory before being parkerized. If you are really anal retentive, you can follow it up with a few strokes of 1000 grit.

If you are even a little bit uncomfortable with this operation, DO NOT try it. It takes a steady hand or jigs and fixtures to make sure you aren't altering the trigger geometry. Also, read the stickes at the top of the forum for function-testing procedures and MAKE CERTAIN your hammer doesn't follow your bolt, your safety still works, etc. before even thinking of loading the rifle with real ammo.

Have fun and BE SAFE.
 
So do I understand you guys correctly that I can reduce the trigger-pull by simply dry firing it for a couple-hundred times? That seems like something I could do...

Thanks a lot!
 
No, don't dry fire it with the rifle assembled or you'll beat the hell out of your firing pin and pin hole in the bolt.

REMOVE the trigger group from the rifle, close the trigger guard on itself and dry fire JUST the trigger group. As Hungry likes to say, sit in front of a hockey game and do it over and over again for a whole game. It should smooth up substantially.
 
I bought one recently. After simply spraying with a degreaser and wiping it off, I took it out to test fire. With some extra reloads I had lying around (nothing fancy, 165 Hornady's pushed by Varget), I was able to put 3 rounds into an inch at 100 yards with the open sights. The sights are plenty good, I'd say.
 
one point a lot of people miss is that shooting off a bench rest does not make you a good shooter. I kept data from a few "Hunter sight in days" from one of my clubs, the average for 3 shot groups at 100 y is close to 3 inches.

This is Hunters shooting their generally scope sighted bolt action rifles. If they were shooting a iron sighted M-305, I would bet the average would be much bigger.
 
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