Curiosity - polarized opinions on Glocks?

MrSchultz said:
here's a question for you gents... what makes the Glock so reliable? how do they do it??

There are many other polymer framed handguns out there - HK, SIG, CZ, FN, Taurus, Beretta, Steyr, Walther, Tangfolio, etc etc. What makes the Glock more reliable than any of these other manufacturers? is it only because of the length of time that Glock has been around?

I like all my guns, I never had a hard on for Glocks, but still own one.
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Take 5 [or 10, or 20, or 50, or 100, or 1000, or...... ] identical generation Glock 17's, put 'em on a table. Completely disassemble/detail strip them. Scramble all the parts. Reassemble one pistol with parts taken at random from the pile. It will likely run flawlessly. There's your answer.... ;)

2007-10-27_091302_1aCoffee.gif

NAA.
 
misanthropist said:
There are not many outfits left that issue the 1911 at all - especially if you look at the trigger time those people get.
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well a good 70% of the Law Enforcement market is GLOCK, but still a surprizing number are allowed to use the 1911, washington state for example has many districts that allow the 1911 (sheriffs, patrol officers, etc) . Also you will find the 1911 authorized for a lot of Special Weapons and Tactics teams and people like LAPD SIS division. Also a lot of dept's that make officers purchase thier own weapons will have the 1911 on the accepted list.

the 1911 is not dead, but it is not a laymans gun.... the 1911 is something a true "gunnut" uses, I am saying that newbies do not buy and abuse the 1911 as well but to see one in a cops holster or a competitors holster means that that person knows that "platform" front to back and knows how to keep it running (for the most part the key to keeping it running is not to screw with it ;) )

I am far from a 1911 hater.... I love the gun so don't get me wrong, would I use one in competition though is another matter, and th answer to that is "not unless I had an identical gun for backup".... would I carry one for self defense if we where allowed, maybe.
 
NAA said:
Take 5 [or 10, or 20, or 50, or 100, or 1000, or...... ] identical generation Glock 17's, put 'em on a table. Completely disassemble/detail strip them. Scramble all the parts. Reassemble one pistol with parts taken at random from the pile. It will likely run flawlessly. There's your answer.... ;)

NAA.
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I would also like to add for the most part glocks are designed to be pretty loose..... for example the slide to frame fit there is visable light you can see between the two, the back of the frame has that big hole going down thru the grip to clear debris from the connector area and so on (people put a plug in the grip and totally screw with the design)..... glock is truely a gun you can run dry without lube and dump in a sandbox and it will still work, the same could be said for WW2 box stock 1911's though.

the problem with modern 1911's is everything is too tight tolerence wise... that is why fitting is required and so on for parts.
 
TIM_COX said:
well a good 70% of the Law Enforcement market is GLOCK, but still a surprizing number are allowed to use the 1911, washington state for example has many districts that allow the 1911 (sheriffs, patrol officers, etc) . Also you will find the 1911 authorized for a lot of Special Weapons and Tactics teams and people like LAPD SIS division. Also a lot of dept's that make officers purchase thier own weapons will have the 1911 on the accepted list.

the 1911 is not dead, but it is not a laymans gun.... the 1911 is something a true "gunnut" uses, I am saying that newbies do not buy and abuse the 1911 as well but to see one in a cops holster or a competitors holster means that that person knows that "platform" front to back and knows how to keep it running (for the most part the key to keeping it running is not to screw with it ;) )

I am far from a 1911 hater.... I love the gun so don't get me wrong, would I use one in competition though is another matter, and th answer to that is "not unless I had an identical gun for backup".... would I carry one for self defense if we where allowed, maybe.
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We are pretty much 100% in agreement on this I think. I love the 1911 more than any gun but it is not a set-and-forget machine. It is a machine for guys who know what they're doing and are willing to invest the time and energy to keep it working well enough that there is no question in their heads that it will feed and extract when their lives depend on it.
 
NAA said:
Take 5 [or 10, or 20, or 50, or 100, or 1000, or...... ] identical generation Glock 17's, put 'em on a table. Completely disassemble/detail strip them. Scramble all the parts. Reassemble one pistol with parts taken at random from the pile. It will likely run flawlessly. There's your answer.... ;)
NAA.
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Which is exactly the test the CZ P-01 had to pass when the Czech police did their testing. FYI it is also true of most pistols these days. In fact it is how most of them are now assembled, from part bins.

misanthropist wrote: "There are many reasons why hand fitting is required to make 1911s run well, and if you think that is simply the result of different manufacturers working to different specs, then I would say it is not me who is confused about the different pistols we're discussing."

You really have to be kidding. Para I know uses Colt drawing from 1922. Try fitting a Para slide on an STI frame or a STI slide on a Colt frame. If I have seen one design for the 1911 beavertail I've seen twnety. Some fit some frames others the frame has to be cut. I have a Tojan backstrap that would require some fitting to get on a Para. Looks the same but the specs for the pistols are different.

misanthropist wrote: "The fact is, some handguns can be as reliable as 9mm glocks...but if you take 10,000 pistols from any manufacturer and compare them to 10,000 g17s, you will be hard pressed to find a pistol which is, on average, easier to keep running in bad conditions than the g17s will be. "

What is your source for your "fact" and what would you consider bad conditions. Do you know what the failure rate for G 17's is for 10K rds? I really think you have been reading far to many Glock advertisements. As the staff at The Shooting Edge in Calgary what their failure rate is for Glocks. You might be surprised. All mechanical devices fail and I would suggest to you the Glock will have just as many failures as other mass produced handguns. If they didn't police departments would have a lot of umemployed Glock armourers. Too, from what I have seen most police officers wouldn't shoot 10K rounds in their entire career yet for some reason their Glocks require the attention of an armourer.

We all love the handguns we buy. For most of us who shoot regularly we will never wear our pistols out no matter the make. With proper care most will out live the shooter. Glocks are great pistols that captured a large segment of the LEO market by being attractively priced, very reliable, simple in design and very attractvely priced. Did I say the were attractively priced.

If you want to keep going on about the Glock setting the standard for 9MM pistol reliability I would suggest it was set a very long time ago with the FN P-35 aka the Highpower.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Which is exactly the test the CZ P-01 had to pass when the Czech police did their testing. FYI it is also true of most pistols these days. In fact it is how most of them are now assembled, from part bins.
Bob
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One of my LEO friends said the same thing was required for their class. Instructor took all of them apart, threw all the pieces in the mud and told them to put them back together ... :cool:
 
Canuck44 said:
Which is exactly the test the CZ P-01 had to pass when the Czech police did their testing. FYI it is also true of most pistols these days. In fact it is how most of them are now assembled, from part bins.

misanthropist wrote: "There are many reasons why hand fitting is required to make 1911s run well, and if you think that is simply the result of different manufacturers working to different specs, then I would say it is not me who is confused about the different pistols we're discussing."

You really have to be kidding. Para I know uses Colt drawing from 1922. Try fitting a Para slide on an STI frame or a STI slide on a Colt frame. If I have seen one design for the 1911 beavertail I've seen twnety. Some fit some frames others the frame has to be cut. I have a Tojan backstrap that would require some fitting to get on a Para. Looks the same but the specs for the pistols are different.

misanthropist wrote: "The fact is, some handguns can be as reliable as 9mm glocks...but if you take 10,000 pistols from any manufacturer and compare them to 10,000 g17s, you will be hard pressed to find a pistol which is, on average, easier to keep running in bad conditions than the g17s will be. "

What is your source for your "fact" and what would you consider bad conditions. Do you know what the failure rate for G 17's is for 10K rds? I really think you have been reading far to many Glock advertisements. As the staff at The Shooting Edge in Calgary what their failure rate is for Glocks. You might be surprised. All mechanical devices fail and I would suggest to you the Glock will have just as many failures as other mass produced handguns. If they didn't police departments would have a lot of umemployed Glock armourers. Too, from what I have seen most police officers wouldn't shoot 10K rounds in their entire career yet for some reason their Glocks require the attention of an armourer.

We all love the handguns we buy. For most of us who shoot regularly we will never wear our pistols out no matter the make. With proper care most will out live the shooter. Glocks are great pistols that captured a large segment of the LEO market by being attractively priced, very reliable, simple in design and very attractvely priced. Did I say the were attractively priced.

If you want to keep going on about the Glock setting the standard for 9MM pistol reliability I would suggest it was set a very long time ago with the FN P-35 aka the Highpower.

Take Care

Bob
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You misunderstand. I did not say that was not A reason 1911s require hand fitting, I said it was not THE ONLY reason.

If that were the only problem, than any manufacturer could churn out at many 1911s as they liked without worrying about reliability issues just by picking one set of specs. Obviously this is not the case.

The high power was definitely a great pistol. If you think that it is today the pistol to beat in terms of performance and reliability, well, agree to disagree, I guess.
 
acm said:
My SIGs make me want to be a better man.
(& I couldn't resist. You did make mincemeat out of that sentence.. :) )
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I didn't jump on your Sig brother, but if you try enough other guns, you will found it is just a reliable gun with good finsih and fit, nothing more and nothing less, just a shooting iron for more money but didn't shoot better than many other guns. Shooter is the one who behind the trigger, your gun cannot make you a better man, you make yourself a better man. By the way, every 10 Canadian, one is ESL, so don't jump on people's English, I did try really hard to learn over the year.

Trigun
 
Trigun said:
I didn't jump on your Sig brother, but if you try enough other guns, you will found it is just a reliable gun with good finsih and fit, nothing more and nothing less, just a shooting iron for more money but didn't shoot better than many other guns. Shooter is the one who behind the trigger, your gun cannot make you a better man, you make yourself a better man. By the way, every 10 Canadian, one is ESL, so don't jump on people's English, I did try really hard to learn over the year.

Trigun
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Absolutely. If I didn't prefer holding a 2x4 to a Glock grip, or if I were prepared to deal with fiddling with 1911, then this conversation, I'm sure, would be going differently! And you misunderstand. I have a couple of pistols which, when not shot to their full potential, (which is always!) I'm sure are disappointed in me.

I can tell by the sad look on their little muzzles.

Oh, and the majority of NON-ESL Canadians have appalling English skills as far as I can see. My standard remains the same.
 
Way back when,
I used to be a fanatical IPSC shooter.
I SERIOUSLY competed in IPSC for over a decade,
and I got fairly good at it.

I owned / built /customised / competed with over 100 Colt Govt type pistols.
And I practiced A LOT with the Govt type of pistols.

At the time,
I swore by the Colt Govt model pistols,
and would agree that for an experienced competitive shooter in the go faster games,
a PROPERLY SET UP Colt Govt pistol is hard to beat

With the goodol' 1911 pistols,
the ergonomics are great, and a very nice trigger pull can be achieved.

Then I went back to school for three years, and I not only didn't have time to practice seriously, I never even had time to shoot ....
at all.

So,
after graduation,
when I finally had some spare time,
I decide to get out my beautiful, hand built, .45 ACP Randall SS match gun [ which cost about $2500 in 1990 money to build ]
and try a few El Presidentes ...
just to see how rusty I was.

A lady RCMP officer watching me asked me if I wanted to buy her Glock G17.
My reply?
"NO WAYYY!! A Serious shooter like moi would never shoot a piece of cheap plastic turpperware.'

Her reply?
"You can have the Glock for $ 250, and I'll throw in some ammo and a holster and mags and pouches!!!"

Ok fine,
I became the reluctant, not so proud owner of a well used Gen 1 G 17.

And you know what is interesting about this story?

When this rusty, out of practice, old pistolero tried that G17 on El Presidentes for the very first time,
he matched his scores with a full house hand built Govt model that cost about
10 TIMES AS MUCH as that stock plastic tupperware pistol.

That was over a decade ago,
and I've been shooting Glocks ever since.

IMHO,
if you are willing to practice A LOT,
then the Colt Govt model pistol may still be one of the best GAME guns available for the SERIOUS competitor.

But if you want a pistol you can just pick up once in a while, and shoot fairly well,
or if you want a PRACTICAL pistol for real world endeavors,
and don't want to modify it or customise it,
then the cheap plastic tupperware Glocks are as good as you need.

BTDT,
kept the Glock
[;{)
LAZ 1

PS: as usual, and advice or opinions you get for free from the internet may be worth much less than you pay for them,
AND,
YPMMV
 
isn't it true that SA doesn't even make the xD series on their own? they're made by another supplier and just re-branded, right? the Glock is made by Glock themselves. i think you can effectively buy the xD as an xD or some other company's gun as well (rebranded).
 
BP7 said:
isn't it true that SA doesn't even make the xD series on their own? they're made by another supplier and just re-branded, right? the Glock is made by Glock themselves. i think you can effectively buy the xD as an xD or some other company's gun as well (rebranded).
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Made in Croatia.
 
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