DI vs piston for AR

[Starscream]

The 416 bolt carrier also has a cut that allows for a few miliseconds of travel before the bolt starts to unlock. The 416 does develop some visable wear spots that tend to induce shock in some shooters. I don't think that they are that serious. The Marines were very impressed with the HK416 and make no mistake in saying that it easily out performed the DI operated Colt and FN SCAR products by a wide margin (the SCAR should have been submitted with just a heavy barrel and not that crazy spring / heat / open bolt system thing).

Rich

As KevinB pointed out, all the rifles sent for trial were all cherry picked. And the IAR was to find a replacement for the SAW, although I think they'll just be a supplement seeing as they're only purchasing some 4000 units (there's 10,000 Minimi's in the USMC inventory, they're only taking 2000 out of circulation and those are the really worn out ones).

Do I thinks a 416 worth the money? No, they're retarded expensive for what they are. The Marines are paying some $6000 a unit. Comparatively The FN M249 costs $3000 per unit.

Do I think the IAR might just be a bit of a bid to get something new and ###y? A little bit, I'm not thrilled by the idea that the barrel's 5" shorter then the SAW's. Especially since there's been some asking for weapons that could reach a bit further then you're standard infantry rifle. Now the Marines are trying to replacing one of the weapons that CAN reach that far with something that cannot possibly have the same lethality range? Errr.... Yeah.

Do I think the 416 is useless? Hell no, it's probably the best of all the GP-ARs of the crop. I like the 416, it's a ###y rifle. But it's a rifle born to address problems that are mostly mitigated in the general infantryman's hands (most soldiers I've talked to are happy with their C7/C8). Problems that simply just don't occur with civilian shooters that take minimal care of their AR. Putting a piston upper to solve any perceived problems of the DI is like using a hammer to swat a fly sitting on the oak desk. Sure you'll smash the fly but you'll also leave marks on the desk's surface. You either live with a fly buzzing around you or a marred desk, that's what it breaks down to.

 

[OZZ]

Every open and honest trial done between piston and DI usually ends up with DI guns winning.

Brit SharpShooter
Uk SOF 5.56mm selection of the C8SFW and C8CQB

and some other recent programs


Pistons can look very appealing at the outset, however they have a lot of flaws too, and in the last 50 years we learned a lot about DI guns, and how to improve them way better than a piston band-aid...



Coatings and Cam path designs can do a lot more than a sharp wrap from a piston..

No sharp wrap with the PWS long stroke, it works just like a AK47 system. The only downside I see is that it is heavy and the rails do not free float.

 

[KevinB]

We did some Long Stroke Pistons with our "Pentagun"
They fair better in some instances than the Short Stroke, but worse in others.

I have about all of the available systems (and more) for testing, and maybe at the end of all of this program, I will become enamored with the piston again, however I doubt it...

I will say that unless you have at least 3 or 4 of a model, and test them suppressed as well as high round counts, none of the issues really come to light.

 

[Rich LPS]

I agree on the SAW issue with the Marines. The IAR should never replace the M249/C9 system. They do have their reasons for wanting the IAR and I think too many arm chair commandos have commented on it with out knowing all the "in's and out's" of their direction and vision.

Cherry picking guns. For sure company's do it or at least have their engineers go over the weapons being sent out with a fine tooth comb before being sent (good business practice). I wouldn't get too hung up on it, as sooner or later the testing samples will be large enough and random to get a true feeling for the performance of the system. Some company's submissions are crap even though they are "cherry picked".

Not sure about DI's winning the majority of the trials. Spain, Portugal, Greece, "Lithuanaia", Thailand all had a piston gun (HK G36) win their trials. I'm not sue on how many DI guns were in the tests though. Norway, Turkey (under licence in their own factory) have gone piston, HK 416. UK SOF was a big one and done right and DI won that one.

Closer to home, the Quebec Provincial Police conducted their own testing of carbines and the HK 416 vastly out performed all others including Colt Canada. They claim it wasn't even close. Having said that other Canadian Police Forces have tested and determined that their is no need to go to a piston (HK 416) gun as the Colt Canada gun is just fine for their purposes, working great and is made in Canada.

Out of the few courses I've been on the DI guns start to fail when they get hot, dirty and the lube dries up. My piston gun just kept going without an issue. I did run a genuine Colt M4 on a course in New York State and it ran perfect but I poured the oil into the bolt & carrier. Other's that didn't keep their AR DI's wet started to jam up, but not all of them were Colt's.

I find that most fans of the AR DI have never been issued or carried anything else for an extended period of time, so it's tough for them to be truly informed. I still want more info on the Sig Sauer 516, with the supressor mode. Just a few thoughts,

Rich

 

[alexD92]

Closer to home, the Quebec Provincial Police conducted their own testing of carbines and the HK 416 vastly out performed all others including Colt Canada. They claim it wasn't even close. Having said that other Canadian Police Forces have tested and determined that their is no need to go to a piston (HK 416) gun as the Colt Canada gun is just fine for their purposes, working great and is made in Canada.

The unit in Quebec City had HK53's or some other model in 5.56 before they recently received their new HK416's. Pretty sure they chose them because they already had a contract with HK.

That's my take on it. Seen them at the local range, the HK53's were pretty beat up. The 416 with the shorty barrel felt great in my hands, pretty light too.

 

[Rich LPS]

Not really anything like a contract between a Police Service and a Gun Company. Just because a Force had one product line before doesn't mean that they have to stay with it. More often than not I've seen Forces change brands altogether when buying new guns.
Love the HK53. Just a bit heavy. When I was taking a HK course in the States the instructor was venting about how they tried to sell the HK53 for years and no one would buy it, now everyone wants a short 5.56mm gun.

Rich

 

[Leibermuster]

I agree on the SAW issue with the Marines. The IAR should never replace the M249/C9 system. They do have their reasons for wanting the IAR and I think too many arm chair commandos have commented on it with out knowing all the "in's and out's" of their direction and vision.

Cherry picking guns. For sure company's do it or at least have their engineers go over the weapons being sent out with a fine tooth comb before being sent (good business practice). I wouldn't get too hung up on it, as sooner or later the testing samples will be large enough and random to get a true feeling for the performance of the system. Some company's submissions are crap even though they are "cherry picked".

Not sure about DI's winning the majority of the trials. Spain, Portugal, Greece, "Lithuanaia", Thailand all had a piston gun (HK G36) win their trials. I'm not sue on how many DI guns were in the tests though. Norway, Turkey (under licence in their own factory) have gone piston, HK 416. UK SOF was a big one and done right and DI won that one.

Closer to home, the Quebec Provincial Police conducted their own testing of carbines and the HK 416 vastly out performed all others including Colt Canada. They claim it wasn't even close. Having said that other Canadian Police Forces have tested and determined that their is no need to go to a piston (HK 416) gun as the Colt Canada gun is just fine for their purposes, working great and is made in Canada.

Out of the few courses I've been on the DI guns start to fail when they get hot, dirty and the lube dries up. My piston gun just kept going without an issue. I did run a genuine Colt M4 on a course in New York State and it ran perfect but I poured the oil into the bolt & carrier. Other's that didn't keep their AR DI's wet started to jam up, but not all of them were Colt's.

I find that most fans of the AR DI have never been issued or carried anything else for an extended period of time, so it's tough for them to be truly informed. I still want more info on the Sig Sauer 516, with the supressor mode. Just a few thoughts,

Rich

+1
On that, the DI system is great but when it comes to high round counts i find HK416 series rifle out performed the competition at the time by a long shot and did what they said it would.

I love the C7/8's and other DI rifles but i wouldn't go back, at least not if i had the choice!

Most soldiers have never even touched another rifle and the ones that have, usually end up spinning their heads over wanting something else.

When my MIL/Leo buddies hold my own personal rifles, and shoot them for a bit they always say they wish they were using these instead.

 

[Leibermuster]

Not really anything like a contract between a Police Service and a Gun Company. Just because a Force had one product line before doesn't mean that they have to stay with it. More often than not I've seen Forces change brands altogether when buying new guns.
Love the HK53. Just a bit heavy. When I was taking a HK course in the States the instructor was venting about how they tried to sell the HK53 for years and no one would buy it, now everyone wants a short 5.56mm gun.

Rich

Unfortunately ahead of it's time or simply too many people couldn't see the light of a true need being met!

 

[Gunnerlove]

Most soldiers have never even touched another rifle and the ones that have, usually end up spinning their heads over wanting something else.

QUOTE]

I have handled a fair number of rifles and the M16FOW is still at the top of my list.

So far only the Ultimax 100 has better ergonomics IMO.

 

[Epoxy7]

Which ever gun has the best barrel (as well as other components) will be the most accurate, does not have much to do with the extra weight of the piston system.
For a 5 round semi auto a DI gun is fine. Some people just want different more interesting guns, that have some advantages, even though they may never take advantage of them.

Rich

Going to have to respectfully disagree with that.

1) It's far easier to free float a DI system than most piston based systems (Which have been around since 1938 ie SVT-38).
2)Also accuracy isn't just about the barrel. The less variance the better. Harmonics etc also play a part. The DI system is much better in this regard.

Look at the principles being used for Bench rest rifles.

 

[greentips]

Life is full of trade off - I want a light and compact package and DI is the most viable option. The G36 is probably more tolerant to dirt and lack of lube - but I know enough to know the AR's limitation and for me ergonomic is prority.

Also LE and military have different requirements. LE does not need to "hump" the stuff. Most of the time, it could be pretty static. Most weapons sit in the cars. Infantry needs to carry millions of items, other weapons and extra ammunition., sometimes for days. One extra pounds turns into a frigging dread when one has to carry the weapon to everywhere, from food to pisser.