.308 trumping 7mm-08 in drop and energy, 150gr TSX BT's in both, interesting stuff.

Ardent

Ardent

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I just copied and pasted this out of a PM I sent, thought after all the typing, might as well share it as not many see it this way. So, if you own a .308 and hunt with it, rest easy knowing you're not giving anything up to the 7mm-08 or anything more exciting than the old Winchester. In fact, the .308 performs better in this 150gr comparison, a perfect weight for general hunting. Now, look forward to hearing why the .308's stone age, slightly different components should have been chosen, and the fractional difference in SD kills 'em much deader despite a slightly lower velocity. :D The more a guy looks at numbers like these, the more one thinks the old cartrdiges do everything just swell and many new-fangled cartridges are just to sell more rifles... :p

That said, I've shot both bores, and like both both bores. Same difference though, and in fact, the edge tilts in an unsuspected direction below here.

JBM balliistics for the calculations, both rifles shooting 150gr boat tail TSX's. The .308 has a rather sizable velocity advantage with 150gr, due to greater efficiency, and gives up a little on BC which is more than made up for inside 300 yards by the velocity. Used the fastest load in each cal for the 150's, the .308 was around 2,900 fps, if I remember correctly, and the 7mm-08 just under... ahh heck with it, pulled up Hodgdon's online data, I enjoy this stuff:

Max 150gr load with Varget as per published loads by Hodgdon, and associated pressure, for each cal:

.308 Win: 2,937 fps - 47.0grs - Varget - 50,300cup

7mm-08: 2,731 fps - 41.3grs - Varget - 50,000cup

The .308 is superior to 800 yards in drop and energy, and still superior after 800 yards in drop and giving up just fractional figures in energy after 800. None of us hunt out there, so that's farther than we need to look, but even there, the difference is a percent of two in energy after 800, and the .308 drops less.

Calculated Tables:

.308 Win, 150gr TSX BT BC .369 as per Barnes: http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)

100 -0.0 -0.0 0.8 0.8 2680.5 2.401 2392.8 0.107 18.8 18.0
200 -3.4 -1.6 3.5 1.7 2438.2 2.184 1979.7 0.224 39.5 18.8
300 -12.6 -4.0 8.3 2.6 2208.7 1.978 1624.6 0.354 62.2 19.8
400 -28.9 -6.9 15.5 3.7 1991.8 1.784 1321.1 0.497 87.4 20.9
500 -54.1 -10.3 25.5 4.9 1788.3 1.602 1065.0 0.656 115.4 22.0
600 -90.2 -14.4 38.7 6.2 1600.3 1.433 852.8 0.833 146.6 23.3
700 -139.9 -19.1 55.7 7.6 1430.7 1.281 681.6 1.031 181.5 24.8
800 -206.7 -24.7 76.7 9.2 1283.5 1.150 548.6 1.253 220.5 26.3
900 -294.6 -31.3 102.0 10.8 1163.4 1.042 450.8 1.499 263.8 28.0
1000 -408.2 -39.0 131.4 12.6 1073.0 0.961 383.4 1.768 311.2 29.7

7mm-08 Rem 150gr TSX BT BC .408 as per Barnes:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)

100 -0.0 -0.0 0.8 0.8 2508.8 2.247 2096.0 0.115 20.2 19.3
200 -4.0 -1.9 3.5 1.7 2297.3 2.058 1757.6 0.240 42.2 20.1
300 -14.7 -4.7 8.2 2.6 2096.1 1.877 1463.1 0.376 66.2 21.1
400 -33.3 -7.9 15.3 3.7 1905.3 1.707 1208.9 0.526 92.7 22.1
500 -61.4 -11.7 25.1 4.8 1726.2 1.546 992.3 0.692 121.8 23.3
600 -101.3 -16.1 38.0 6.0 1560.4 1.398 810.8 0.875 154.0 24.5
700 -155.6 -21.2 54.2 7.4 1410.3 1.263 662.3 1.077 189.6 25.9
800 -227.3 -27.1 74.3 8.9 1279.0 1.146 544.8 1.301 228.9 27.3
900 -320.3 -34.0 98.2 10.4 1170.0 1.048 455.9 1.546 272.2 28.9
1000 -438.8 -41.9 125.8 12.0 1085.5 0.972 392.4 1.813 319.1 30.5

Well, and say you were concerned that there are loads that produce slightly more with a different powder in the 7mm-08 than Varget, so I've included that as well, which also shows the .308 Win superior in both drop and energy to 400 yards. This is Hodgdons fastest 150gr 7mm-08 load, with any powder, at 2,823fps. The .308 still outdoes it since it can launch more than 100fps faster than even this load at the same bullet weight.

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)

100 -0.0 -0.0 0.8 0.8 2596.3 2.325 2244.7 0.111 19.5 18.6
200 -3.7 -1.8 3.3 1.6 2380.6 2.132 1887.3 0.231 40.7 19.5
300 -13.5 -4.3 7.8 2.5 2175.3 1.948 1575.7 0.363 63.9 20.4
400 -30.7 -7.3 14.6 3.5 1980.2 1.774 1305.8 0.508 89.4 21.3
500 -56.8 -10.8 23.9 4.6 1796.3 1.609 1074.5 0.667 117.4 22.4
600 -93.7 -14.9 36.1 5.7 1624.9 1.455 879.3 0.843 148.3 23.6
700 -143.8 -19.6 51.6 7.0 1468.2 1.315 717.8 1.037 182.5 24.9
800 -210.0 -25.1 70.7 8.4 1329.0 1.190 588.2 1.252 220.3 26.3
900 -296.0 -31.4 93.7 9.9 1210.7 1.084 488.1 1.489 262.0 27.8
1000 -405.8 -38.8 120.5 11.5 1116.4 1.000 415.1 1.747 307.5 29.4

I used to be a rabid 7mm-08 fan, but I noticed my .308 at the time was dropping less from the same barrel length, and was surprised. I'm sure even with the lighter bullets, the .308 will shine, as it really starts to scream with them again due to the basal area. So, at any hunting range, the .308 has a slight edge. Was enough to make me feel just fine, and actually impressed by, the "old .308". So now, I shoot 7x57 and .308. Like both bores, but there's no advantage to the 7mm for a hunter, just a different flavour.
Click to expand...
 
As you mentioned not many people hunt out to 800 yards. :D

So I can't see the numbers meaning much withing 300 yards.
Other then the 7mm-08 being a flatter shooting lighter recoil generating cartridge. :D
 
For any given cartridge capacity a larger bore will always throw the same weight of bullet faster...In other words you could make the same argument with the 358Winchester.

A better comparison would use bullets of similar sectional density and would not use a powder that handicaps the 7-08.

Run your numbers with a similar 120-130grain .284 bullets (same S.D.) and any gain you have wished into existence will have completely vanished.....In fact the 7-08 will be in the lead.
Farther out things only get worse for the 308...When looking at competition bullets comparing the 308 to a 260 reveals a big gap in wind drift. The 260 offers significantly less recoil than the 308...Another huge bonus in competition.

None of this is to say the 308 isn't a good hunting round.
FWIW the 150 TTSX might be the best hunting bullet ever invented for the 308Win hunter.

I have no use for either round.
 
For me it comes down to this. I can buy .308 in at least 4 places within a 2 minutes drive from me. I might be able to find 7mm-08 at one of them (but I doubt it). Then its a 40 minute drive to Epps (which happens to be in the exact opposite direction from where I do all of my hunting). That also doesnt factor in cost.
 
blasted_saber said:
For me it comes down to this. I can buy .308 in at least 4 places within a 2 minutes drive from me. I might be able to find 7mm-08 at one of them (but I doubt it). Then its a 40 minute drive to Epps (which happens to be in the exact opposite direction from where I do all of my hunting). That also doesnt factor in cost.
Click to expand...

cartridges are more alike than different.

until you need to buy some.
 
In comparing the two we already know the .308 Win is a great cartridge the 7mm-08 is a necked down version of the .308 Win.

By virtue of its parentage the 7mm-08 is another excellent cartridge some would say it is even more refined than the .308 as it achieves very much the same ballistics with less powder resulting in less recoil. Check out some interesting reading on this subject in Accurate Shooter http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html. The 7mm-08 is a very good consideration for hunting and target.

To the competitive shooter this a very real advantage to the hunter this difference is not really appreciated as the difference in real world hunting terms is finite.
The .308 Win ammunition can be found easily and in abundance the 7mm-08 not so easily for the reloader the same applies.

Thanks to Ardent I did find the original article very interesting and thought provoking and of course had to do my own research. My personal preference is and has been for the past 30+ years the .308 Win as the recoil is very acceptable plus bullets and supplies are not terribly expensive and can be found easily.
I see no compelling reason to change to the 7mm-08 the great .308 Win is just fine for another 30 years.

Cheers!
 
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for me, I wanted a smaller caliber than my 7mm rem mag..... I chose the 7-08 because I had a good assortment of .284 bullets anyways... I have shot my 7-08 tikka and a 308 tikka, and there is no difference to me. It just made sense to use supplies I already had. Nothing wrong with the 308 at all.
 
I think that all the various cartridges derived from the parent .308 Winchester
are impressive in their own right. From the .243 Win., to the .358 Win., to the
Johnny come lately .338 Fed., the .308 Winchester has sired an outstanding family
of cartridges which, of course, includes the 7mm-08. It's just an all round great cartridge.
 
I don't consider the .308 particularly old at 60 years. And at 30 years, I don't think of the 7mm-08 as "new-fangled". They're just both sensible, excellent and proven hunting cartridges.
 
358 BLR said:
I think that all the various cartridges derived from the parent .308 Winchester
are impressive in their own right. From the .243 Win., to the .358 Win., to the
Johnny come lately .338 Fed., the .308 Winchester has sired an outstanding family
of cartridges which, of course, includes the 7mm-08. It's just an all round great cartridge.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the 260!:D
Cat
 
Max 150gr load with Varget as per published loads by Hodgdon, and associated pressure, for each cal:
Click to expand...

Using Varget gives the 308win an advantage.Use the fastest load regardless of powder,and use bullets of similar sectional density in each gun,and the results will mean more.
 
have both, love 'em both, have more experience with 308, but that will change to equal, soon. have 2 new rifles in 7mm-08 to play with. Perhaps the 139-140 grain bullets in the 7mm will produce "the edge" that the silhouette shooter's found back in '80. I hope so! I bought the Sako A7 in 7mm hoping to edge my son's T3 in 308.
 
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Calum said:
As you mentioned not many people hunt out to 800 yards. :D

So I can't see the numbers meaning much withing 300 yards.
Other then the 7mm-08 being a flatter shooting lighter recoil generating cartridge. :D
Click to expand...

You didn't read the data, or post, did ya? :) The .308 is shooting flatter, and recoil, doesn't even come in to play on small cartridges like the .308 family. There's essentially no real world difference in recoil between the two.
 
stubblejumper said:
Using Varget gives the 308win an advantage.Use the fastest load regardless of powder,and use bullets of similar sectional density in each gun,and the results will mean more.
Click to expand...

I did, you missed the bottom of the post it seems, to make sure the comparison's fair, I also included the fastest 7mm-08 150gr load, with any powder, from Hodgdon data. The .308 still dropped less, and had more energy at all hunting ranges. The big news to me isn't a fractional edge to the .308, it's that the .308 is the equal, and actually slight superior, of the flashier 7mm-08 in this comparison of max published loads in each at the same weight. If you go on SD, not bullet weight, you're going backwards in my opinion. Bullet weight has always meant more terminally in my hunting experience than SD. SD plays a factor, but it's so close between .30 cal and .284 that bullet weight's far more important for these purposes. Just my opinion, I shoot 160gr from my 7mm's, and above.
 
Ardent said:
You didn't read the data, or post, did ya? :) The .308 is shooting flatter, and recoil, doesn't even come in to play on small cartridges like the .308 family. There's essentially no real world difference in recoil between the two.
Click to expand...

Methinks the data is flaw as it manages to defy the laws of aerodynamics. :D

For .308 based cartridges I prefer the .243 anyway. :D
 
Calum said:
Methinks the data is flaw as it manages to defy the laws of aerodynamics. :D

For .308 based cartridges I prefer the .243 anyway. :D
Click to expand...

Nope, it's dead straight in accordance with the laws of physics. :) Bigger bullet basal area = faster velocity of bullet for equal pressure. It's just showing in this example that the benefit in the .308's greater velocity and energy outweighs the slight ballistic coefficient edge of the 7mm.

...243 is a fantastic varmint cartridge, and kid's / women's cartridge. Poor choice for big game, of course, in my opinion. A .308 will also launch a 150gr bullet essentially as fast as a .243 launches a 100gr out of the same case.
 
Ardent said:
Nope, it's dead straight in accordance with the laws of physics. :) Bigger bullet basal area = faster velocity of bullet for equal pressure. It's just showing in this example that the benefit in the .308's greater velocity and energy outweighs the slight ballistic coefficient edge of the 7mm.
Click to expand...

What exactly does this mean on impact with a non paper animal?

And is there any effect on the taste of the roasted venison? :D

Ardent said:
...243 is a fantastic varmint cartridge, and kid's / women's cartridge. Poor choice for big game, of course, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Define big game? :D

Should I roast my venison harvested with my .243 with small quickly pan roasted potatoes then?
 
How about the Hornady Manual?

The following info is from the Hornady Sixth Edition Reloading Manual. It showed the 7mm-08 with a 24" barrel so I deducted 60 fps(30fps per inch of barrel) as the 308 only had a 22" barrel.

These are max loads for both calibers and a 200 yd zero. This shows the 7mm-08 at 2.4" flatter and with 20% more energy at 500 yards or another way to look at it is the 7mm-08 has as much energy and velocity at 500 yards as the 308 does at 400 yards. All this and shooting a higher S.D. bullet to boot!!!


308 with 150gr SST/Interbond .415 BC

Ballistics Table in Yards 150 gr., .415 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2800 2690 2582 2374 2176 1988 1810
Energy (ft.-lb.) 2611 2410 2221 1878 1577 1316 1091
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 0.8 1.9 0.0 -8.0 -23.4 -47.6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7mm-08 with 154gr SST/Interbond .530 BC

Ballistics Table in Yards 154 gr., .53 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2740 2655 2571 2408 2251 2099 1954
Energy (ft.-lb.) 2567 2410 2260 1982 1732 1507 1305
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 0.8 1.9 0.0 -7.9 -22.6 -45.2
 
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