Encounter with a Game Warden

LongBomber said:
Sir you must be American. There is no "Right to bare arms" in Canada. Maybe you watch too much american TV.

Here is Section 7:

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."

And here are your legal granted rights:
Section 7: right to life, liberty, and security of the person.
Section 8: right from unreasonable search and seizure.
Section 9: freedom from arbitrary detainment or imprisonment.
Section 10: right to legal counsel and the guarantee of habeas corpus.
Section 11: rights in criminal and penal matters such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Section 12: right not to be subject to cruel and unusual punishment.
Section 13: rights against self-incrimination
Section 14: rights to an interpreter in a court proceeding.

So I ask you, where does it say anything about the right to bare arms? Anywhere in the CANADIAN Constitution?
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You are correct LomgBomber, I was referring to the original 1867 Cdn Constitution. Its in there somewhere, have to find my copy of it.

600
 
f:P: Everything I needed to learn in life I learned back when I was playing in the sandbox.
Obviously some members need to go back to their childhood and learn to play nice.
I have said it before and I'll say it again , You can not win an argument with a C/O a Police officer or a Peace Officer on the side of the road or in the field.
We as a society have given then the power to do their job, no matter how poorly we feel they maybe doing it.

They can not charge you for any violation, they can only issue you a ticket or arrest you on suspicion of something illegal or issue a summons to appear before a judge and/or a jury in a court of law
.
But, all these experts thinking they can smack around a Federal Employee or Provincial Employee and get away with it , really need to smell the coffee.
But, if it makes you feel better to threaten or condone violence for a few infractions against the ones we pay to protect and serve, well then have at it and see where you end up.
Tight Groups boys and girls.
Now its time to eat some ice cream and watch the fireworks.
Roger Out !
Rob
 
Many of us talk, me included, like lawyers. But there is a reason lawyers have squads of paralegals to research precidents, and case law. Because law is interpretive. What that means is a CO or LEO can lay a charge and then let the courts battle over case law and precedent to determine or arrive at a conviction or not. In the meantime an officer has a basis to lay a charge or not and that's what they work from. For instance, someone said you only have to show ID and that's it. The only time you are obligated to produce ID when demanded is under the highway traffic act. No choice there. If you're standing on a street corner and LEO asks for ID you're not obligated. There are miriad acts, legislation, and consolidated law which cover just about everything you can imagine, and these acts and legislations cross one another constantly so what we know or believe to be true of one "act", may actually be contravened in another act we are unaware of.
I am by no means a lawyer, I don't claim to be an expert by ANY stretch of the imagination, and what little I understand of law is based on Ontario laws. I am not telling anyone they are right or wrong, it is simply my opinion that we get too involved in "jail-house law" sometimes and end up calling LEO's or CO's names or say they are inept.
That being said, here are a few quick excerpts from the Ontario Fish and Game Conservation Act. (With a couple comments thrown in pertaining to the discussion here). My comments are in brackets.
Shotguns
19. A person shall not hunt (DEFINE HUNTING) with a shotgun unless the shotgun has been permanently plugged
or altered so that it cannot hold a total of more than three shells at one time in the chamber
and magazine. 1997, c. 41, s. 19.

Hunting equipment
9(2) A person shall not possess in a provincial park or Crown game preserve a firearm, trap, other hunting or trapping device, or explosive.

87. (1) The Minister may appoint a person or class of persons as conservation officers for the purposes of this Act.
Same
(2) The following persons are conservation officers for the purposes of this Act by virtue of their office:
1. A police officer or First Nations Constable appointed under the Police Services Act.
2. A member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
3. A game officer designated under the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 Canada.
4. A park warden designated under the National Parks Act (Canada), if he or she is acting under the direction of a conservation officer appointed under subsection (1).
5. A person whose primary employment responsibility is the enforcement of fish and wildlife laws in Manitoba, Quebec, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin, if he or she is acting under the direction of a conservation officer appointed under subsection (1).

88. For the purpose of this Act or the regulations, a conservation officer may inspect a firearm or ammunition in an area usually inhabited by wildlife, on a road leading to or from an area usually inhabited by wildlife or on the waters adjacent to an area usually inhabited by wildlife. 1997, c. 41, s. 88.
Inspection of conveyance

89. (1) A conservation officer may stop a conveyance (TRUCK-CAR ETC) if he or she has reasonable grounds (WHO DECIDES REASONABLE GROUNDS? NOT HARD TO PROVE REASONABLE GROUNDS) to believe that stopping the conveyance would assist in determining whether there is compliance with this Act or the regulations. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (22).
Operator to stop
(2) On the conservation officer’s signal to stop, the operator of the conveyance shall immediately stop and produce for inspection any wildlife, invertebrate, fish, document (DOES NOT MENTION REASONABLE GROUNDS HERE - THEY ASK, YOU SHOW) or other thing requested by the officer for the purpose of this Act. 1997, c. 41, s. 89 (2); 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (23).
Just trying to prove the point we can banter all we want, the easiest solution is to understand the laws regarding our hobby, and to an extent understand they are just doing their job.
.
 
So after all this its still confusing as to whether you have to provide your PAL to a C/O in Ontario? I'm assuming you have to provide your ID but not sure thats clear either after reading all this stuff.

600
 
600 Mohawk said:
So after all this its still confusing as to whether you have to provide your PAL to a C/O in Ontario? I'm assuming you have to provide your ID but not sure thats clear either after reading all this stuff.

600
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I don't know to what extent CO's enforce the Criminal code and the Firearms act. I'd have to think that they do have enforcement powers regarding the Firearms Act as do other agencies such as the CBSA.
 
With all this regulation garbage and advice to say this and not say that if inspected etc. etc. makes you wonder about all the "bear defense shotgun" threads in the 'black and green shotgun' section !!

Damn this country is f***ed.

600
 
I have said it before and I'll say it again , You can not win an argument with a C/O a Police officer or a Peace Officer on the side of the road or in the field.
We as a society have given then the power to do their job, no matter how poorly we feel they maybe doing it.
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don't discount the 10 feet high and bullet proof effect of the internet

I think the guy handled himself well even the the CO was an idiot

I would have said i had the gun for black bears (and then pointed to the bear bangers)

and if he would have said there was no bears around here i would have pointed out that i guess it would stay in the truck then

funny things with idiots and power they just use their power not their brains then again nobody's perfect not eve me :D
 
Calum said:
Plugs are for hunting ducks...at least that's what it's about out here in BC anyway.

Hunting Deer, target shooting and Bear defense...no plugs needed.
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In BC right.......but doesnt' relate to what happened near Westree, Ontario.

Ill copy from the FAQ from the Ontario MNR website

Question Re: Number of Shells in Shotgun
Do I need to plug my 12 gauge shotgun, so it can only hold 2 shells in the magazine, when I'm hunting deer or grouse?

Answer:
Yes, the regulation which restricts the number of shells in a shotgun to three (one in chamber, two in the magazine) apply to all hunting, regardless of species.

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/Enforcement/2ColumnSubPage/198399.html#firearms


My point was : he wasnt' hunting ....he's allowed to transport an unplugged pumpgun.
 
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Mohawk 600 ,,,So after all this its still confusing as to whether you have to provide your PAL to a C/O in Ontario? I'm assuming you have to provide your ID but not sure thats clear either after reading all this stuff.
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Pal and anything else they are asking for when in an area usually inhabited by wildlife. On the street, no. They gennerally do not enforce criminal code violations although they can enforce some. I was bow hunting in a controlled wildlife management unit once and had to show 6 pieces of paper concerning permission to be in that area etc. More if it had been a gun hunt. Cripes!
And I wonder about the bear defense carry as well. The common argument against it would be... there are thousands of treehugging hikers and campers that don't feel the need to carry a shotgun when they camp or fish, why should you need one. My response would be that they have no idea what they'd be up against. I remember warning a treehugger once not to sleep in their tent wearing the same clothes they cook dinner in. Why? they asked. I enlightened them a little about smelling like dinner to a bear and even being wrapped neatly in a vinyl pita for them.
 
CO vs. LEO. Hunting vs. Criminal code. A few years ago, in a rural area east of ottawa, we had a moose wander into a pasture and take up residence with a guys cows. Even made the Ottawa papers because the moose would stand by the fence while people took pics. Some putz decided he was going to kill this moose and take it home. He backed his van to the fence and with his wife and son in the van started to climb the fence. No moose season at this time btw. My hunting buddy is passing and stops. Asks the guy what he's doing. The guy says I'm shooting the moose. Friend says no you're not, no season. Guy says it's a traffic hazzard and dangerous (remember, it's been in a pasture for a week by now). Friend calls the OPP. They show up and discuss, then go to the trunk of the cruiser and take out a rifle. They're going to shoot the moose now. My friend stops them and calls MNR enforcement, tells them whats going on, then hands the phone to OPP. They say yes, no, a couple times, hand the phone back, put the rifle in the trunk and tell the idiot "hunter" to get lost. Friend asks the CO what happened, he says he told the OPP if they shoot that moose they will be charged. It' not a danger in a pasture, and there is no season.
So who trumps who? Depends on the situation. We have to be friggin lawyers now. Like I said earlier, all law is interpretive.
 
Slooshark1 said:
I'm not sure if I'm in the wrong here so I'm asking your opinion.

I went away fishing at a friends camp in Westree, ON for the May long weekend. There were about 15 guys in total. I decided to through my 870 Wingmaster with slug barrel in the truck. "Just in case." I had a Ziploc bag with some slugs and bear bangers. We drove to a lake and launched the boat and fished for the day. When we got back to the landing and were unloading our boats, the game warden showed up. Okay, no big deal. He checked our licenses and coolers and everything was good. He then opened the back door to my truck and said, "Who's firearm?" I said, "That's mine." He said, "For what reason do you have a firearm in your truck?" I said, "I don't have a reason. I was going away fishing for the weekend and just thought I'd throw it in the truck in case I needed it."
"What would you need it for?" He asked. I said, "I don't know but if I did, I would be glad to have had it."

He took my gun and my fishing/hunting license, driver's license and my PAL to his truck to make some calls. The other three guys that I was standing with were all worried. I had actually forgotten that it was even in the truck. I had it covered up and out of sight and the truck was locked.

He comes back with my gun and said, "There's no plug in this shotgun, There's no trigger lock on it. You can't hunt with a shotgun with no plug in it and you don't even have a valid small game license." I said, "But I'm not hunting." He said, "I suggest that you keep this locked up at home and not bring it out if it's not hunting season." He said, "If I had caught you with this in the boat, you would be getting charged for poaching." He asked me, "Why wouldn't you have left it at camp?" I told him, "I don't know all of the guys at the camp, I'm not leaving it there with them." Nobody in the camp even knew I had a gun with me. I wasn't advertising. I told him that I did have a trigger lock for it at the camp in my duffle bag and told him that I would put it on when I got to the camp. I had forgotten that there was no plug in the gun, but again, I wasn't actually hunting. I went on to tell the game warden that I always carry a gun with me when travelling alone. It makes me feel safer. (God hasn't anyone watched Deliverance, Blair Witch Project and Wrong Turn?)

He wrote down all of the information off my shotgun and then gave me my shotgun back and drove away. I was so flusterred, that I didn't even think to ask him for my licenses back. So we're on the highway, half way back to Westree when I realize that he never gave me back my driver's license, PAL and hunting fishing license. I don't even know where the guys office is or what his name is or anything. He showed up at the camp in the evening and gave them back to me.

When I got back to the camp, I cut a stick for a plug and I put the trigger lock on the gun and locked it up in the truck out of sight.

So the next day we're out fishing and we packed up to go to another lake and saw two game wardens on the side of the road loading up a boat on a trailer. We pulled over to say hello and see what was new. One of the game wardens came over and chatted with us. He asked if he could have a look in our cooler and we told him sure. The second game warden was the fellow from the day before. He walked up and asked me where the shotgun was. I told him it was behind me, locked, with the plug in and stored out of site. He asked me again, what reason I had carrying a shotgun and I told him again, "Because it makes me feel safer." I didn't want to tell him that it was for protection from bears because then he might charge me with poaching bears, which I most certainly was not doing.

I was a little embarrassed in front of the guys I was fishing with because they all hunt but they're not quite into guns as much as I am and would never think of bringing a gun on a fishing trip. I wasn't showing it off or shooting at the moon with it at midnight so I don't see what the big deal is.

As far as I'm concerned, I didn't do anything wrong.
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You didn't do anything wrong and it doesn't sound like the CO did either.


I have highlighted some of your responses. To a CO perhaps they seemed fishy, pardon the pun.

It seems by your own words the CO did not say anything that contradicts the law. He didn't say you needed a trigger lock, just stated you didn't have one, as well as talking about the plug.

He didn't charge you for anything, such as improper storage, no plug, hunting w/o a lic etc, etc.

Perhaps the CO was doing his job, questioning you after you answered "I don't have a reason".
 
Its a damn shame you cant say "for self defense" from wildlife.

The warden must have watch that South Park episode where the hunters were in the woods and were shouting "ITS COMING RIGHT AT US" before blowing away just about any type of wildlife they saw!


PS: Do you need a plug to hunt coyotees in Nova Scotia? I "hunt" these things every time I go for a walk in the woods...........which is alot.
 
archie126 said:
You didn't do anything wrong and it doesn't sound like the CO did either.


I have highlighted some of your responses. To a CO perhaps they seemed fishy, pardon the pun.

It seems by your own words the CO did not say anything that contradicts the law. He didn't say you needed a trigger lock, just stated you didn't have one, as well as talking about the plug.

He didn't charge you for anything, such as improper storage, no plug, hunting w/o a lic etc, etc.

Perhaps the CO was doing his job, questioning you after you answered "I don't have a reason".
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Other than giving a personal opinion about a 100% legal activity.
I suggest that you keep this locked up at home and not bring it out if it's not hunting season.
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Intimidating...yes. Now will the OP or the other gun owners in his group carry a firearm with them in a similar situation?...I doubt it.
Which should concern us all, because it takes away everyone's freedom one little bit at a time. :(
 
The Game laws here in N.B. used to work the way you're describing, it's called reverse onus. The Crown didn't have to prove you were breaking the law in court, you had to prove you weren't. When the constitution came back to Canada and the Charter of Rights became law the reverse onus thing became history. I had friends who were charged with night hunting at the time because CO's pulled them over on a back road and they had cased rifles in the trunk and a flashlight in the dash. They beat the charge but it was a major pain in the ass.
If the OP's situation had occurred in N.B. the outcome would have been different. Here unless the season is open for hunting and you have a license the gun would have been seized. Legally I can't even take my shotgun down the road to have it repaired during a closed season unless I get a transport permit from the D.N.R.
 
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