accuracy question - AR vs Swiss
- Thread starter Kreech
- Start date
The geometry you are describing is incorrect.
Draw a circle, and put the center of infinite number of circles on the circumference of the first circle - the resulted graphic will give the maximum size. The center is used because it is the mean POI - the circule is just an area of where there is a high probability where a shot will land.
A 4" circle surrounded by a ring of 2" circle has a maximum raidus of 3". Beltfed has described the correct size.
ha! Bs
themarauder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Just north of Toronto, thankfully.
I'd say that depends on the gun. My AR always goes bang.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
I can count on one finger the stoppages I have had with ARs in the last decade and it was solved by a tap and rack. In the last 18 months I have fired 6500 through my Stag and 10K+ through C7A1s, C8s and an M4.
Milspec ARs are reliable.
Franken guns are another story.
- Location
- big sky country
Given the same barrel, I'll take an AR over a Swiss Arms anyday of the week.
I just wanted to put forth my experience!...
I just purchased a Swiss classic green a few months ago from a buddy that did not want it after he purchased it.
I have been struggling to get my Swiss to shoot well... or like his new DPMS AR. He can shoot golf balls at 200 yards and shoots under 1 MOA easily.
After loading over 800 rounds to try and develop a load with 5 different weights of bullets and 5 different powders i do have some loads that approach 1.25 MOA. Most Did not.
Most will tell you that the best you can get from a Swiss is 1.25 MOA. I had a guy from TSE tell me just that. That is all you can ever expect from it with the best ammo. I even purchased some RUAG 556 Nato rounds from them and that too will not give under 1.5 MOA in my gun. His explanation was that the Swiss does not have a Free floating barrel. Others have told me the same on this forum... This will always hamper your accuracy.
Just so you know.. i have a Savage 12 F/TR .308 that shoots under a 1/2 MOA at 200 yards so its not me nor my ability to shoot.
So if you want to shoot under 1.25 MOA you need to look a purchasing an AR with those capabilities. If you are happy with 1.25 MOA then go with the Swiss if you have the cash.
Dan
I just purchased a Swiss classic green a few months ago from a buddy that did not want it after he purchased it.
I have been struggling to get my Swiss to shoot well... or like his new DPMS AR. He can shoot golf balls at 200 yards and shoots under 1 MOA easily.
After loading over 800 rounds to try and develop a load with 5 different weights of bullets and 5 different powders i do have some loads that approach 1.25 MOA. Most Did not.
Most will tell you that the best you can get from a Swiss is 1.25 MOA. I had a guy from TSE tell me just that. That is all you can ever expect from it with the best ammo. I even purchased some RUAG 556 Nato rounds from them and that too will not give under 1.5 MOA in my gun. His explanation was that the Swiss does not have a Free floating barrel. Others have told me the same on this forum... This will always hamper your accuracy.
Just so you know.. i have a Savage 12 F/TR .308 that shoots under a 1/2 MOA at 200 yards so its not me nor my ability to shoot.
So if you want to shoot under 1.25 MOA you need to look a purchasing an AR with those capabilities. If you are happy with 1.25 MOA then go with the Swiss if you have the cash.
Dan
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This photo was from a swiss postal shoot a few years back. The gun was propped on my IPSC pistol range bag and shot from the prone at 100m.
First 6 rounds were slow, deliberate fire (6 in the center) and the following 6 were rapid fire in under 15 seconds....I never measured the group of first 6, but I'm pretty sure it is moa or better.
While I'm of the opinion that it is easier and cheaper to get an AR to shoot as well or better, don't believe the Sigs won't, because I know they can.
Hell, they come with an accuracy guarantee from the factory for a reason.
First 6 rounds were slow, deliberate fire (6 in the center) and the following 6 were rapid fire in under 15 seconds....I never measured the group of first 6, but I'm pretty sure it is moa or better.
While I'm of the opinion that it is easier and cheaper to get an AR to shoot as well or better, don't believe the Sigs won't, because I know they can.
Hell, they come with an accuracy guarantee from the factory for a reason.
I don't know what to say. If the RUAG GP90 won't shoot in your guy I'll buy it from you. I've shot well under MOA at 300 meters with it. My Classic Green shoots all ammo great. I've had groups under MOA often. Even crap ammo shoots good out of the gun. I've got about 9000 rounds out of my gun and had 2 jams, one was a squib from a hand load (I got from someone else). One of the best shooting guns I've ever owned and most reliable.
You've got me stumped. Maybe your barrel is damaged.
Rich
You've got me stumped. Maybe your barrel is damaged.
Rich
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
An AR varmint should be able to make MOA with load development. There's a fellow on youtube that was making consistent hits on a 11"x"17 target at 860 yards.
The question you are asking is very very very broad
You are comparing a specific rifle ( Swiss Arms Black special etc ) to a family of rifles that will vary tremendously in price and barrel / trigger
If you have $3000 to blow, and you don't care about restricted / non restricted than I would buy a $3000 AR
I sold my Swiss Arms ( great gun but I don't need two non restricted ). Would I take this gun (over a run of the mill AR ) shure...because its a Swiss Arms
Did this gun outshoot all my AR ...NO . Its not fair to compare some of my ARs in the accuracy dept to the Swiss Arms ( Noveske...even my 10.5" ! , Satern ( cut rifle ), Krieger, WOA ...10.5" barrels ) since they are all higher end barrels with non standard chambers . The WOA , Krieger had Wylde, the Noveske has their Match Mod 0 . You would expect these guns to shoot better
The ARs that suprised me on accuracy was the Working Joe RRA Varmint . they have a 3/4MOA guarantee BTW. This thing was a great shooter...especially for the money. The other was my LMT MRP 10.5 . This was not their stainless match barrel but rather their chrome lined
One area that the ARs excell in is availability of triggers. You are kinda stuck with the Swiss Arms. AR triggers vary from god awefull to scary light. Boils down to how much you want to throw at it
If the non restricted of the Swiss Arms appeals to you then go for it. If it does not matter to you , then build yourself one of these ( both boringly accurate ). Top one is a Noveske, bottom is a Satern ( cut rifle ) barrel.
You are comparing a specific rifle ( Swiss Arms Black special etc ) to a family of rifles that will vary tremendously in price and barrel / trigger
If you have $3000 to blow, and you don't care about restricted / non restricted than I would buy a $3000 AR
I sold my Swiss Arms ( great gun but I don't need two non restricted ). Would I take this gun (over a run of the mill AR ) shure...because its a Swiss Arms
Did this gun outshoot all my AR ...NO . Its not fair to compare some of my ARs in the accuracy dept to the Swiss Arms ( Noveske...even my 10.5" ! , Satern ( cut rifle ), Krieger, WOA ...10.5" barrels ) since they are all higher end barrels with non standard chambers . The WOA , Krieger had Wylde, the Noveske has their Match Mod 0 . You would expect these guns to shoot better
The ARs that suprised me on accuracy was the Working Joe RRA Varmint . they have a 3/4MOA guarantee BTW. This thing was a great shooter...especially for the money. The other was my LMT MRP 10.5 . This was not their stainless match barrel but rather their chrome lined
One area that the ARs excell in is availability of triggers. You are kinda stuck with the Swiss Arms. AR triggers vary from god awefull to scary light. Boils down to how much you want to throw at it
If the non restricted of the Swiss Arms appeals to you then go for it. If it does not matter to you , then build yourself one of these ( both boringly accurate ). Top one is a Noveske, bottom is a Satern ( cut rifle ) barrel.
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Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Got any SA war stories? because I have been shooting the M16FOW in a lab for the last 14 years.
Even shorties these days are very reliable.
The M16FOW is inherently accurate by design.
More AR's in Canada are more hampered by their triggers than barrels. I had a C7A1 in the CF that would shoot inside 1MOA with C77 ball pretty much ever day of the week.
I benchmarked 6 11.5" gun for a Government Trial and all shot subMOA at the 100m with the customers 70gr "Brown-Tip" BlackHills load. And ironically we got the contract from them over a bunch of other systems
Those had Colt Canada CHF barrels -a good barrel but not a SS or CM Match barrel with match chamber.
I have Krieger and Douglas barrelled Match rifle/carbines (16", 18.625" and 20") that will shoot inside .5MOA with Mk262 ammo as long as the shooter does his thing.
The M16FOW is inherently accurate by design.
More AR's in Canada are more hampered by their triggers than barrels. I had a C7A1 in the CF that would shoot inside 1MOA with C77 ball pretty much ever day of the week.
I benchmarked 6 11.5" gun for a Government Trial and all shot subMOA at the 100m with the customers 70gr "Brown-Tip" BlackHills load. And ironically we got the contract from them over a bunch of other systems
Those had Colt Canada CHF barrels -a good barrel but not a SS or CM Match barrel with match chamber.
I have Krieger and Douglas barrelled Match rifle/carbines (16", 18.625" and 20") that will shoot inside .5MOA with Mk262 ammo as long as the shooter does his thing.
