Opinions on old M98 actions

Gun Lover;
In no way do I consider myself an expert on Mausers, only a serious student of them and their derivatives for a few decades now. The more I read, the more I know that I don’t know very much at all.

From what I’ve been able to gather some of the older 98 Mausers made before the mid 1920’s can be somewhat softer and may require being heat treated to prevent the lugs from setting back into the action. This can include the 1909 Argentines or so I read anyway.

While I have read about lug setback happening on Swede 96 Mausers, I have yet to see it on any of the dozen or so I’ve worked on over the years. I’ve always felt that the quality of machine work on the Swedish made ’96 actions is very good and I could only guess how much a modern rifle would cost to get that level of finish.

Over the years I’ve played with another dozen or more 98 Mausers from various manufacturers. While the VZ24 is well thought of and indeed a finely built military action, the nicest machining I can recall on a military action was on a 1943 vintage 98 built in the Steyr factory in Austria. I’ll add that there were no flies on any Belgian FN made actions I’ve looked at either.

The 98 actions built in occupied Nazi territory seem to lack finish machining in later war years – say 44 and onward, but then we still have a 1944 made in the Mauser factory that cleaned up OK and works well.

Beware of any 98 action that has had the feed guides for the stripper clip ground off, as I've seen quite a few that had too much metal removed and the result is a much too low rear scope mount that can cause a multitude of scope related issues.

With military 98’s I usually throw in a new striker spring right away now, having had a couple go soft over the years -its cheap insurance I figure.

I’ve put mostly Timney triggers into the 98’s we’ve owned or that I’ve worked on and they have always worked out well.

With commercial 98 actions, the Santa Barbara actions on Parker Hales and Century Arms rifles are less desirable than a Belgian FN, but seem well made to me.

Some Parker Hales had a strange trigger arrangement and the pot metal trigger housing was somewhat prone to breakage.

I have worked on two PH rifles that didn’t feed very well, a .308 and an ’06. The .308 I was able to get feeding without too much difficulty, but the ’06 refused to feed re-sized cases for me. The owner passed away before I could try different dies or figure out if it was an oversized chamber, which I suspect it might have been.

One older vintage Voere I worked on was built on an unknown surplus action and had a number of fairly significant issues with it. The trigger arrangement was nettlesome to work with, the extractor had not been opened up for the magnum cartridge it was chambered for, so it fed only with great difficulty and the bedding was suspect.

Any Husqvarna commercial actions I’ve seen have been excellent. Some of the older Husky’s with beech stocks were prone to the stock splitting at the rear tang, but that is an easy repair.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck with your 98’s wherever they may take you in the rifle world.

Regards,
Dwayne
 
BC30cal, okay so you point out a couple of things that I need to ask:


Is a Husqvarna Commercial Mauser a M96 or M98?
Or are there Commercial Mausers in M96 and M98 actions?

What is it when it just says Commercial Mauser?

An FN98 is Belgian (Fabrique National) right?

Any Mauser action, regardless of name, that has FN before it is good right?

M1600 and M1900 are small ring?

Any M98 is large ring?

Parker Hales are unreliable pieces of crap... ?
Voere is okay.
Brno is good.
M96 is good.
M98 is good?
M1600 and M1900 are good?
 
Demonical;
I’ll try to answer as best as I can in order. I’ve dragged up my copies of Ludwig Olsen’s “Mauser Bolt Rifles – 3rd edition” and Frank de Hass’ “Bolt Action Rifles – Revised Edition” to help my foggy memory this afternoon.

Speaking in broad terms, a “commercial Mauser” will have a solid receiver on the left side, that is no thumb cut out and then correspondingly no stripper clip guide at the top rear of the receiver.

All the Fabrique Nationale made 98’s that I’ve seen were all very well made as I mentioned and I’d personally be happy to make up a rifle with any I’ve seen thus far.

I believe that the Husqvarna large ring actions that were imported into Canada in the early ‘50’s were actually made by Fabrique Nationale and if memory serves they made the actions on some Sears rifles. I recall seeing at least one FN action with a Marlin Micro-Groove barrel on it, but for the life of me I can’t recall who the distributor was.

"Bolt Action Rifles" says that FN actions were used by Browning, Weatherby, Sako, Parker Hale, Colt, Marlin, high Standard, Winslow, Harrington & Richardson and others!

Husqvarna started making their own actions a bit later and in the literature I have are called HVA actions. The action is a bit of a cross between a ’96 and a ’98 with the outer dimensions of the receiver ring listed as 1.29” as opposed to a “large ring” which is 1.43” As far as I know they used more or less a standard 98 type extractor.

As a by the way, the weight listed on a “small ring action” is 42oz. and a “large ring action” is 45oz.

The Husqvarna M-8000 is quite a different action, not really a “Mauser” at all, with a Sako type extractor and interesting looking dovetail shaped locking lugs. I’ve only closely examined one in my life and it looked very well made indeed.

I’m not sure what an action would necessarily be when it only says “Commercial Mauser” as it could be an FN or then again it could be:
-a Spanish made Centurion or Santa Barbara
-a Yugoslavian made Herters J9 or Zastava - Interarms Mk X
- a very rare Japanese made Ackley Mauser
- a French made Brevex
- or a couple others I’ve heard were made in very small quantities recently and whose names escape me right now, sorry.

I’m not well versed on the Husqvarna Model 1600 and 1900 and the books don’t mention them as such, though they may be versions of the HVA actioned rifles?

Except for the G33/40 actions, all M98’s that I’m aware of are large ring. There are a pile of little dimensional differences in them though, so for instance the Turkish ones were a bit longer in action length as well as some other differences.

I didn’t mean to give the impression at all that Parker Hales were unreliable. The thing about being a bit of a gun mechanic in the neighborhood is only the broken ones get dragged over to my shop, so there could be 500 doing yeoman duty for every one that is giving some troubles. The two that had feeding issues wouldn’t stop me from buying a Parker Hale for an instant, I’d just want to run a couple cases through to see how it fed – no different from any other used rifle I might be looking into though, right?

As a broad statement, the PH triggers were a potential issue as the housings seem to break at the same place, but as a Timney can be made to fit without a lot of grief, one is only out the cost of the trigger and installation if they do calf out on you.

Again if I was looking at picking up a used Parker Hale, I’d pull the barreled action out if possible to have a look at the shape the trigger is in.

I’ve had excellent luck with Parker Hale barrels and have had two installed on rifles I’ve had rebarreled with very acceptable accuracy results.

The only Voere I worked on was the one I mentioned and though the outer metal was polished very well and it was an excellent bluing job, the fact that they hadn’t opened up the extractor made me wonder. If it were mine it would have a different trigger installed as well, but it wasn’t mine and the owner was happy with a bit of a heavy, creepy trigger so the original stayed.

CZ/Brno stuff has an excellent reputation. There are CZ made 98’s such as the VZ24 actions and then there are ZKK actions which aren’t really ’98 actions. I do hear good things about the ZKK and the newer series actions but besides playing with a couple CZ/Brno .22’s I’ve only looked at the newer actioned rifles at gun shows and the like.

I’ve had only positive experiences with M96 actions, but they were designed for lower pressure rounds such as the 6.5x55 and have less gas venting capability than a M98, so I wouldn’t be inclined to rebarrel it for a higher pressure round such as the .308. That said, my neighbor has a M96 in .308 that has given him no problems at all, so there you go.

Again, I’m not really up on the Husqvarna 1600 and 1900 other than reading good reports about them.

Lastly, the above is only one guy’s experiences playing with different rifles over a few decades and the next fellow’s experience might be totally opposite and would be just as valid in my view.

Hopefully that was some use to you anyway. Have a good week.

Regards,
Dwayne
 
and thus are rated a bit stronger because of the solid side wall.
Click to expand...

OK this is a choker to swallow. Where exactly do you figure the locking lugs are? Yep many inches ahead of that cut. How much steel do you figure is left on that side wall? Lots more then the sum total of the thread that holds the barrel on!

For that cut out to matter you'd have a total and absolute failure of the forward lugs and the bolt would have to be held by the rear 'emergency lug' to a point where that little tab of metal held while the entire action ripped in two !

Not everything you read on the internet is true.

Oops I se RGV beat me to it.

BTW if the authours of the above myth felt that you could bend the action with the guard screws easier due to the cut out that too does'nt hold much water.
 
An FN manufactured 98 full C ring commercial action would be my first choice, regardless of brand name. There are small ring 98 actions, the Mexican comes to mind, but there are others. I have used a couple over the years (and sold one in full military dress I couldn't bring myself to tear down) to make a nice relatively lightweight sporter. After the FN, a Husky or CZ would be my next choices, again for a commercial action. Military options are a different basket of snakes, that would take a whole blog (maybe when I retire, lol). - dan
 
BC30cal said:
Demonical;
I’ll try to answer as best as I can in order. I’ve dragged up my copies of Ludwig Olsen’s “Mauser Bolt Rifles – 3rd edition” and Frank de Hass’ “Bolt Action Rifles – Revised Edition” to help my foggy memory this afternoon.

Speaking in broad terms, a “commercial Mauser” will have a solid receiver on the left side, that is no thumb cut out and then correspondingly no stripper clip guide at the top rear of the receiver.

All the Fabrique Nationale made 98’s that I’ve seen were all very well made as I mentioned and I’d personally be happy to make up a rifle with any I’ve seen thus far.

I believe that the Husqvarna large ring actions that were imported into Canada in the early ‘50’s were actually made by Fabrique Nationale and if memory serves they made the actions on some Sears rifles. I recall seeing at least one FN action with a Marlin Micro-Groove barrel on it, but for the life of me I can’t recall who the distributor was.

"Bolt Action Rifles" says that FN actions were used by Browning, Weatherby, Sako, Parker Hale, Colt, Marlin, high Standard, Winslow, Harrington & Richardson and others!

Husqvarna started making their own actions a bit later and in the literature I have are called HVA actions. The action is a bit of a cross between a ’96 and a ’98 with the outer dimensions of the receiver ring listed as 1.29” as opposed to a “large ring” which is 1.43” As far as I know they used more or less a standard 98 type extractor.

As a by the way, the weight listed on a “small ring action” is 42oz. and a “large ring action” is 45oz.

The Husqvarna M-8000 is quite a different action, not really a “Mauser” at all, with a Sako type extractor and interesting looking dovetail shaped locking lugs. I’ve only closely examined one in my life and it looked very well made indeed.

I’m not sure what an action would necessarily be when it only says “Commercial Mauser” as it could be an FN or then again it could be:
-a Spanish made Centurion or Santa Barbara
-a Yugoslavian made Herters J9 or Zastava - Interarms Mk X
- a very rare Japanese made Ackley Mauser
- a French made Brevex
- or a couple others I’ve heard were made in very small quantities recently and whose names escape me right now, sorry.

I’m not well versed on the Husqvarna Model 1600 and 1900 and the books don’t mention them as such, though they may be versions of the HVA actioned rifles?

Except for the G33/40 actions, all M98’s that I’m aware of are large ring. There are a pile of little dimensional differences in them though, so for instance the Turkish ones were a bit longer in action length as well as some other differences.

I didn’t mean to give the impression at all that Parker Hales were unreliable. The thing about being a bit of a gun mechanic in the neighborhood is only the broken ones get dragged over to my shop, so there could be 500 doing yeoman duty for every one that is giving some troubles. The two that had feeding issues wouldn’t stop me from buying a Parker Hale for an instant, I’d just want to run a couple cases through to see how it fed – no different from any other used rifle I might be looking into though, right?

As a broad statement, the PH triggers were a potential issue as the housings seem to break at the same place, but as a Timney can be made to fit without a lot of grief, one is only out the cost of the trigger and installation if they do calf out on you.

Again if I was looking at picking up a used Parker Hale, I’d pull the barreled action out if possible to have a look at the shape the trigger is in.

I’ve had excellent luck with Parker Hale barrels and have had two installed on rifles I’ve had rebarreled with very acceptable accuracy results.

The only Voere I worked on was the one I mentioned and though the outer metal was polished very well and it was an excellent bluing job, the fact that they hadn’t opened up the extractor made me wonder. If it were mine it would have a different trigger installed as well, but it wasn’t mine and the owner was happy with a bit of a heavy, creepy trigger so the original stayed.

CZ/Brno stuff has an excellent reputation. There are CZ made 98’s such as the VZ24 actions and then there are ZKK actions which aren’t really ’98 actions. I do hear good things about the ZKK and the newer series actions but besides playing with a couple CZ/Brno .22’s I’ve only looked at the newer actioned rifles at gun shows and the like.

I’ve had only positive experiences with M96 actions, but they were designed for lower pressure rounds such as the 6.5x55 and have less gas venting capability than a M98, so I wouldn’t be inclined to rebarrel it for a higher pressure round such as the .308. That said, my neighbor has a M96 in .308 that has given him no problems at all, so there you go.

Again, I’m not really up on the Husqvarna 1600 and 1900 other than reading good reports about them.

Lastly, the above is only one guy’s experiences playing with different rifles over a few decades and the next fellow’s experience might be totally opposite and would be just as valid in my view.

Hopefully that was some use to you anyway. Have a good week.

Regards,
Dwayne
Click to expand...

The "1900" action was a push feed designed by HVA and probably one of the smoothest actions ever made.
 
dan belisle said:
An FN manufactured 98 full C ring commercial action would be my first choice, regardless of brand name. There are small ring 98 actions, the Mexican comes to mind, but there are others. I have used a couple over the years (and sold one in full military dress I couldn't bring myself to tear down) to make a nice relatively lightweight sporter. After the FN, a Husky or CZ would be my next choices, again for a commercial action. Military options are a different basket of snakes, that would take a whole blog (maybe when I retire, lol). - dan
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Dan, I recently looked at two identical Mausers at a persons house. Before handing me one, the person said, it is a 7 mm.
It was a perfect example of a 98, I didn't measure the ring, but virtually certain it was a large ring. However, there were no markings, whatsoever, on the rifles or actions. They had been military, the barrels had been shortened, but were originally step cut. That is, two reducing steps in barrel diameter. The barrels were cut aout 2 inches ahead of the last step.
I didn't see them out of the wood, but the owner assured me there were also no identifying wording on the underside, either.
They had owned one, at least, for quite a few years and regularily shot standard 7x57 commercial ammo in it.
To sum up, no indication of any visible sort to indicate origin of rifle or calibre.
Have you ever come across this?
Bruce
 
H4831 said:
Dan, I recently looked at two identical Mausers at a persons house. Before handing me one, the person said, it is a 7 mm.
It was a perfect example of a 98, I didn't measure the ring, but virtually certain it was a large ring. However, there were no markings, whatsoever, on the rifles or actions. They had been military, the barrels had been shortened, but were originally step cut. That is, two reducing steps in barrel diameter. The barrels were cut aout 2 inches ahead of the last step.
I didn't see them out of the wood, but the owner assured me there were also no identifying wording on the underside, either.
They had owned one, at least, for quite a few years and regularily shot standard 7x57 commercial ammo in it.
To sum up, no indication of any visible sort to indicate origin of rifle or calibre.
Have you ever come across this?
Bruce
Click to expand...

Did they have thumb cuts? If so, I would suspect military actions that had been reground to remove all the markings, a not uncommon thing back when everyone wanted the swastikas and what not off of their hunting rifle. If they were uncut commercial actions, I know there were kit actions available in the 50's that had no markings on them, I've seen a few over the years. - dan
 
They had thumb cuts.
There was also no way that any marks had been ground off. Lots of original finish left and overall very good condition. I do believe there were one or two single or double digit numbers that seemed insignificant and I didn't have my camera with me.
The shortened to about 22 or 24 inch, step barrels, would certainly prove military.
It's been a long time since I've seen an old FN Browning commercial rifle, but as I remember they had step cut barrels, which could have been quite similar.
The rifles had scopes and they told me they were really good shooting rifles, which I can believe, from just looking at the contour of the obviously stiff barrels.
I wonder what kind of value range they may fall into?
Bruce
 
Demonical;

As per stated before, the HVA 1900 is a push-feed action, in the Tikka way, but of better design. It is currently manufactured by A. Zoli, in Italy and commercialized under these names; A. Zoli, Carl Gustav and Husqvarna (in Sweden).
The machinery was sold by FFV (Carl Gustav + HVA) and Zoli ended up using it. The 1900 were also made in Belgium, under contract.

As for the HVA 1640/1600 actions, they are of very good quality, modern manufacture small ring actions. They are in the same class as the Czech 21H/22F wich are, actually, small ring M/98 design and are considered one of the best. Just keep in mind the 1640/1600 actons were also originally chambered for high energy rounds such as the 7mm Rem Magnum and the .358 Norma Magnum.

Regarding the older Mausers, one need to know that ALL original post-92 Mausers had / have soft cores, and it's part of the original design. In those days, Alloyed steel was not a common thing and it was really expensive to produce. Paul Mauser designed his actions (starting with the M/92) to handle the higher pressures produced by the then "modern" powders. The soft cores are there to avoir shrapnels to shatter and blow in direction of the shooter, instead the soft core will "tear" in large piece moving in an (expected) way it won't hit the shooter.
The material used for the post-92 actions was a low (or plain) carbon steel grade. The surface hardening (usuallly less than 0.008") was made to limit wear on critical areas (such as external erosion, lug engagement...).

Commercial action denomination doesn't really exists; it's an easy way to determine if the action was first made for military or civilian market. A lot of "military" type action were expressely made for civilian market though. All HVA bolt actions are "never issued" out of the production line actions. Here are the rough timlines;

M/46 and variant; made in three calibers on Carl Gustav (expressely) made actions in caliber 9.3X57 - 6.5X55 and 9.3X62 - These have the thumb cut-out.
Note that it's not the M/96 but the M/94 wich served as a base to these rifles. It is a common error to call them M/96 and it's the way that the CFC classified them, htat's why most call them that way; the M/94 (and the later M/38) have a bent bolt handle while the M/96 have a straight bolt handle.

M/146-246 - these are made on FN 98 military type actions (never issued to military), and also have the thumb cut-out - in cal. 9.3X57 and 9.3X62

The 640 series is much more complicated; the early M/640 were made on M/38 (all amde by HVA) "solid wall" design. Then, later on, HVA was finally able to get FN M/98 actions again, but in their "commercial (civilian) form; first, with solid wall, the "C" form, with the charger bridge lips; then, without the lips and later without it; then, starting about 1949 in the "H" ring form, wich some say they are "weaker" (in design, but not in material used) because they have two slots cuts instead of one (for the "C" ring form).
This design brang FN to introduce their "Surpreme" action later.

While FN started selling actions to Sako, and was working it's way to introduce (in 1956) their 300 series or "Surpreme" actions, the Czech introduced their ZG47 and HVA started selling their own 1640/1600 series (circa 1953).

Hope that helps a bit.
 
H4831 said:
They had thumb cuts.
There was also no way that any marks had been ground off. Lots of original finish left and overall very good condition. I do believe there were one or two single or double digit numbers that seemed insignificant and I didn't have my camera with me.
The shortened to about 22 or 24 inch, step barrels, would certainly prove military.
It's been a long time since I've seen an old FN Browning commercial rifle, but as I remember they had step cut barrels, which could have been quite similar.
The rifles had scopes and they told me they were really good shooting rifles, which I can believe, from just looking at the contour of the obviously stiff barrels.
I wonder what kind of value range they may fall into?
Bruce
Click to expand...

Perhaps they were built by a custom 'smith in Germany or Belgium, I have seen some amazing finishes done by some of those gents, and they didn't all mark their work. The stepped barrel was fairly common back then, stiff to resist vibration variables, but light enough to pack, still a good idea. I have a couple of rifles with that set up in 8mm Mauser and 8mm-06, both are good shooters. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
Perhaps they were built by a custom 'smith in Germany or Belgium, I have seen some amazing finishes done by some of those gents, and they didn't all mark their work. The stepped barrel was fairly common back then, stiff to resist vibration variables, but light enough to pack, still a good idea. I have a couple of rifles with that set up in 8mm Mauser and 8mm-06, both are good shooters. - dan
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Thanks Dan, that is a very logical explanation. Sure could be.
I may end up buying one and if I do, I will post some pictures.
Bruce.

Edited to say, "Gonna get her tomorrow!"
 
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I prefer Husky or Brno not that Fn or early Sakos are not just as good. Parker-Hales and Yugoslav mausers are not as good to me. All the fighting about the side rail cutout of military actions being weaker is not true in a practical sense, Moose Masher had it right, they were reputed to be not as stiff. If you were building a target rifle, for a hunting gun it's not even worth thinking about. My 2 cents.
 
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farshot said:
Depends what you really want. If you like to tinker and modify a bit - a cheaper 98 sporter may be your ticket.

if you want out of the gate good- lean to a BRNO, Voere (sp) , or similar. They will have safeties (non-military), likely a better one stage trigger and a good stock.

Myself, I would not hesitate to buy a BRNO zg-47 from Tradeex. Even if it needs a little stock gluing to fix a crack or two, if Anthony says the bore is very good - then that is what it is. You will have a rifle that will last forever and hold its value very well.

Even a BRNO 601,600 or 602 - you know what they are like and know they are great dependable rifles. I feel the BRNO line is the best Mauser. The 600 series does not have the cut through the left front locking lug which some say adds to strength. me - i dont think that means much as they are all plenty stong.

The BRNO / CZ line uses a superior scope mounting system with their 19mm dovetails to accept the clamp on scope bases. No little screws to strip out of the receiver or mis-drilled swiss cheese base holes.

The newer Voeres (sp) may use a non-controlled feed system in their bolt (like a remington) which is fine as well. I find they tend to be "smoother" or the bolt tighter in the receiver. Again, that may appeal to you, but they both function fine. I dont mind a bit of slop with a mauser type bolt as long as it doesnt bind and it locks up tight (most do)

The commercial HVAs are not well known to me so I cant speak about them - suffice to say they are also wonderful actions and rifles.

I really dont think you can go wrong with those choices. phone and talk to Anthony - they are great and will tell you all about your choices and send pictures of the details.

I find some may take a very little work (stock cracks- maybe a butt pad etc) - but when done you wil have a keeper - I dont think I have bought a bad one from them yet.

I would stay away from one with welded on scope bases or other bubba type options - that is a bit of a stetch for me.
Click to expand...

^^^^
Listen to the wise one! He knoweth not the excellent path he sends you down! :D

Honestly though, i have a BRNO zg-47 sitting in the "keeper" end of my safe. Expensive but undoubtedly worth it. If you have to save up for an extra month or 2 to get it, well thats what i'd be doing. I know it's hard but so....so....so worth it! Good luck.

Dorian
 
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