blow offs - help needed

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fclassguy

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I sat yesterday at Cedar Springs outnumbered and suffering through a debate between myself as the only F Class shooter and 7 TR shooters over the need for a blow off period. I did my best to hold my ground on the point, as the TR shooters (one in particular who is involved in match planning) went on about how uncomfortable it is to wear a shooting jacket for the extra minute it takes to conduct blow offs. A whole minute…. Wow… gotta be tough!

I could feel nothing but frustration and a sense of betrayal as the ground slipped out from under my feet because no matter how passionate I was about the point - the match organizer (TR guy) did not personally like blow offs and therefore the matter was closed and they were not about to be conducted at CS.

So I'm thinking to myself... WTF?

Almost every new ORA member is an F Class shooter, so why are we as a group so disrespected?

TR has a much more limited future than F Class, so what is happening here?

Anyway, it hits me like a ton of bricks!

The reason we (as F Class Shooters) get punked out all the time is because the matches are organized almost exclusively by the incumbent TR shooters and this needs to change.

Not that I’m volunteering for this, but people from our F Class side of the tracks (hopefully from the Toronto area) need to get more involved in the ORA so that we can have a voice that will be heard. Otherwise it will continue to be the legacy TR organizer guys throwing us table scraps and we F guys will continue to be treated as unwelcome guests in their high faluted little world…

And thank you Norm for being one of the few that have been involved, but you need some help buddy.
 
Sorry, but we don't get a blow off shot at Kamloops either and this IS an F class shoot organized by F class shooters.

The match typically goes 2 or 5 sighters for first relay. Then 2 sighters for the other relays including the Sunday matches.

I have only had one match where we were allowed a blow off shot on Sunday morning.

So now I don't bother cleaning the entire match weekend. Doesn't seem to hurt and that first shot on Sunday tends to be in the group.

Not the answer you were looking for but what we shoot at Kamloops.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Sorry, but we don't get a blow off shot at Kamloops either and this IS an F class shoot organized by F class shooters.

The match typically goes 2 or 5 sighters for first relay. Then 2 sighters for the other relays including the Sunday matches.

I have only had one match where we were allowed a blow off shot on Sunday morning.

So now I don't bother cleaning the entire match weekend. Doesn't seem to hurt and that first shot on Sunday tends to be in the group.

Not the answer you were looking for but what we shoot at Kamloops.

Jerry
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We generally give the choice of 5 non-convertible sighters or 2 convertible sighters (shooters choice for first string, first day) for our Kamloops shoots. The 5 non-conv. is essentially a blow off period but makes you shoot your 15 for score the hard way.

We sometimes get 1 blow off shot at Vokes then 2 sighters and score.

US uses unlimited sighters for first relay of each day.

I guess it's up to the Match Director to either allow blow off's or not.

I prefer a blow off period personally to get the barrel warmed and fouled.
 
fclassguy said:
Not that I’m volunteering for this, but people from our F Class side of the tracks (hopefully from the Toronto area) need to get more involved in the ORA so that we can have a voice that will be heard. Otherwise it will continue to be the legacy TR organizer guys throwing us table scraps and we F guys will continue to be treated as unwelcome guests in their high faluted little world…
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You can't pick and choose what rules you want to use. Here in Ontario the F'ers want to shoot on F Class ICFRA targets with the 1/2 MOA V during competitions. Nowhere in the ICFRA rule book does it say anything about a blow off period. If a blow off period is allowed it is under local rules to stop the whinning sound coming from the F class shooters.

For the first time this year at the ORA Annual matches, the F Class will be squadded together and shooting on ICFRA F Class targets. Usually F Class shooters shoot much faster than TR shooters, so the solution to the problem is add an extra non-covertable sighter or 2 to the regular time limit of the match. Not extend the prep time or add 1 minute (that ends up being 2-3) to the match.
 
In most of the competitions I have been in, you're lucky if you get any blow-off's at all.

We tend to allow extra sighters at club level matches as a tool to help new shooters get on the paper, but this is not common PRA/national/ICFRA practice at all.

I understand the Brits were even suggesting that sighters be eliminated from ICFRA rules!

I appreciate the frustration you have and I know where you are coming from, but I think we do no justice to our sport to publicly trash other disciplines. If we are not part of the solution we are part of the problem. What has to change is the prejudice, not the sport.

Ian Hames
Canadian F-Class National Team Captain,
FCWC, Raton NM 2013
 
Ian,
I hope I didn't come across as trashing F Class. Both disciplines need each other to continue to exist. F Class is the fastest growing target shooting sport but the numbers are not there yet it be stand alone. While new TR shooters are almost nil we still have a large number of cadets that we always hope to attract to the sport once they leave cadets. These kids are all trained TR shooters, we just can't seem to attract them once the cadet program stops paying the bill.

To the OP
Once the F Class entries reach the size of the TR entries maybe the F Class will have a bigger voice. More F Class shooters need to get involved on their PRA Council but until that happens, you are trying to get the tail to wag the dog.
 
I have not heard of an extra non-convertible sighter, but that seems to be a good idea, insead of a blow off. If my scope is one revolution out, then a shot at a target is more useful than one in the dirt.
 
In US at match in F Class ... unlimited non convertible sighters and just declare when you are "going on record" to the scorekeeper. However this is Single string runs.

At CFRC last year, no blow offs or foulers prior to any match BUT they had spaces and times available for a couple bucks every 8am practice session that I used to foul the cleaned barrel.

We all have our preferences ...but are still governed by the MATCH rules, whatever they are, where you are.
 
Gord is right... most major matches have practice/sighting days prior to the match and this is a good chance to get the gun sighted and zeroed for the climate, altitude and humidity.

Maynard: I can whine with fervent alacrity about many things, but when it comes to F vs. TR conflicts, I just challenge them to a farting contest to settle the score. No living - or recently dead - TR shooter can beat me, and I always win. I wouldn't want to be uncivilized or unsportsmanlike :)
 
Here is a thought, pair F Class shooters and shoot string with a blow off rule. Your times will still be faster than TR shooters and it will not effect TR shooters at all.

I shoot F Open and will gather the F Class guy opinions here at home and see what they want and what we can change without causing an honest issue. "Good" ideas need to be carefully examined as we know not all are feasible. A select few can be tried amongst ourselves without effecting the TR guys at all. At home we shoot at the same time but not together, if we wanted to shoot string or have blow offs the TR guys wouldn't even notice. This isn't a smart remark, it is simple fact on how our shooting style effects theirs at times.

I'm not in favor of blow offs but if that is what the guys want then its fine with me. I really don't think it is an issue. The target we shoot at, now THAT is an issue.
 
Ganderite said:
I have not heard of an extra non-convertible sighter, but that seems to be a good idea, insead of a blow off. If my scope is one revolution out, then a shot at a target is more useful than one in the dirt.
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In Alberta's Homestead Range, we allow one non-convertible sighter at the start of each day, followed by the 2x convertible sighters and then the number of rounds on score. It's a TR tradition and we FR's support it.

As a purist, I prefer cold barrel scores ... but heck, this is competition ... the fouler makes a nice sighter, especially if you are not home to that range and cannot sight in earlier. We're 4800' ASL at Homestead - always nice to get a local sighter before going on score, especially if you're mucking around with your [new?] scope between days. It also warms up the butt crew.

Unlimited sighters I'm not a fan of .. especially during competitor marking.
 
Shot at Kingston last weekend range officer alowed us to shoot 1 blow off shot, target was lowered and patched with no score showing. as others have said you could probable shoot 3 relays of F class before TR guys finnished one relay or just getting started on 2nd. There where more F class shooters than TR shooters at Kingston and I would think in a few years, there will be many more F class shooters than T/R shooters
 
fclassguy said:
the TR shooters (one in particular who is involved in match planning) went on about how uncomfortable it is to wear a shooting jacket for the extra minute it takes to conduct blow offs..
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Honestly, though I like some of them, the TR captain grump crowd that we seem to have a plethora of at Homestead make a weekend shoot nearly unpalatable. I have 2 paid and didn't go days from last year where I went on Saturday, but going for it again on Sunday was just not worth it. There is better things to do on a summer weekend then live through that.

And I rarely pass on a good day shooting, and would like to shoot TR. Specializing ones sport to the extent that TR seems to have gone is dissapointing. From chatting to some TRers on this board, I am given the impression that it is not like this everywhere though.
 
Hell Sean - come out some more. It's changing. You missed a good day today! The SR crowd also has its share of grumps - we're changing the world one FC shooter at a time! <<<LOL.

Bill
 
scout said:
Hell Sean - come out some more. It's changing. You missed a good day today! The SR crowd also has its share of grumps - we're changing the world one FC shooter at a time! <<<LOL.

Bill
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I'll be back Bill. In force. Just have some 5 month old stuff to clear up first.

scout said:
The SR crowd also has its share of grumps
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Yes, I know. :mad:

Maybe we should create a grump freestyle league? Na, wouldn't work. I'd want to shoot that too.
 
I personally believe in some sort of blow off period and here's why...

I believe my barrel is unstable for about 5 shots after a good cleaning. It's anybody's guess where those first 3-5 shots will go. I dont care if I must shoot them into a barrel of water, straight into the air, into a ditch, a tree, or into an unmarked target. I just want to bang off those shots before I start.

If they are not permitted at some point before the start of the match then it puts me in a potentially illegal position where I might have to stop on the side of the road somewhere to shoot them off. (Thats what I usually do) Then I risk some cop nailing me for who knows what. To put myself or anyone else in that position over such ignorance and opinion is uncontionable.

Anyway the blow offs are just one issue of many that have been caught up in this power strugle and politics of match format and conduct.

The TR crowd needs to learn to respect F class needs or it will become increasingly adversarial and that's not good for anyone.

A stonger presence of F Class guys in the organizational body is the best way to ensure that our needs are taken seriously.
 
Isn't it strange that an F class barrel would need blow off shots, but a TR barrel would not...

Maybe it would be possible to organize as hoot in such a way that there would be a short period prior to the commencement of a match program for zeroing/fouling shots. For any shooters who wanted the opportunity - even TR ones.
 
fclassguy said:
I personally believe in some sort of blow off period and here's why...

I believe my barrel is unstable for about 5 shots after a good cleaning. It's anybody's guess where those first 3-5 shots will go.

If they are not permitted at some point before the start of the match then it puts me in a potentially illegal position where I might have to stop on the side of the road somewhere to shoot them off. (Thats what I usually do) Then I risk some cop nailing me for who knows what. To put myself or anyone else in that position over such ignorance and opinion is uncontionable.

The TR crowd needs to learn to respect F class needs or it will become increasingly adversarial and that's not good for anyone.

A stonger presence of F Class guys in the organizational body is the best way to ensure that our needs are taken seriously.
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Mike,
First of all the match organizers are in no way trying to put anyone at a disadvantage or "potentially illegal position" by making you stop along the way to the range and foul your barrel.
The next point I will make is that if your barrel is so unstable that is anybody's guess where the first 3-5 shot will go, stop cleaning it so much;) If your rifle won't hit paper at 300 with a clean barrel it is time for a new barrel.

Some people are very anal about cleaning the bore. Have you ever seen how many rounds it takes for the group to open up enough that you are not holding the bull?

I think the respect thing work both ways. At a match the size of the ORA Annual why should 80-90 TR shooters (wearing heavy shooting jackets) be inconvenienced with a blow off peroid while 20 F class shooter louge around in T- shirts. F Class shooter shoot fast enough that fouling shots can be taken well within the time limits of the match.
 
The blow off, or not blow off issue doesn't concern me. What worries me here is that a shooter that comes out to shoot with us thinks theres a fence between diciplines.
Don't go building walls/fences between the diciplines. We,ve enough problems with anti gunners and govt. to not stand together as shooters.
Only fences I see are shooters and non shooters and I try to bring over all I can to the shooter side.

M.
 
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