Wow. A barrel that unstable needs to be tossed. As for being put in a position of having to do an illegal act? Well that's probably the single stupidest thing I've read on the internet in a long time. You know the match rules long before you show up. If they aren't what you want don't go. Pretty simple. Bragging about breaking the law, or intending to, is a good way to get banned here.
blow offs - help needed
- Thread starter fclassguy
- Start date
Slavex,
You are more than welcome to come on out and compete against that unstable barrel any time my friend. That unstable barrel hasnt lost a match.
You need to clear something up for me here...
Did I say I was breaking the law? Please show me where I said that? Cause I cant find it.
Is it the "who knows what" part?
Where was the bragging about breaking the law? I cant find that part either.
You think we should accept the rules as is or dont go, what's that all about?
Are these rules decreed to us by some supreme being who is beyong question?
You sound just like one of the high horse organizer guys I'm complaining about. Accept the rules without question? Why should I or anyone else? Now and then rules need to be adjusted to suit the changes in the sport. If we all took your advice, we'd still be shooting 303 enfields.
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a good TR person would probably convert two fives as sighter shots but a good fclass person probably not.
TR people would win with all fives but fclass people who shoot all fives will be in last place.
since the score for fclass is higher those people are more focused on the need for things TR people dismiss as insignificant like blow offs. if fclass people think they need these blow offs then maybe they do
Seeing that I am one of those "high horse organizers" I will say that a blow off period is 
at our range as far as I am concered. If you want an extra non convertable sighter or 5, no problem as long as you do it after the match starts, not before.
I once had a 40X that would put the first 2 shots at 2 o'clock in the 4 ring with a clean barrel. So I had a choice, either disregard the first 2 sighters and leave the sights alone or make a full correction and fire a 4 at 8 o'clock for my first on score
The other choice was to stop being so anal about cleaning so could count on my sighters to be true.
at our range as far as I am concered. If you want an extra non convertable sighter or 5, no problem as long as you do it after the match starts, not before. I once had a 40X that would put the first 2 shots at 2 o'clock in the 4 ring with a clean barrel. So I had a choice, either disregard the first 2 sighters and leave the sights alone or make a full correction and fire a 4 at 8 o'clock for my first on score
The other choice was to stop being so anal about cleaning so could count on my sighters to be true.No, you miss my point.
It doesn't matter if the rifle is TR or F Class. If a barrel needs a few rounds to settle down after cleaning, the class of rifle is irrelevant. It happens with some rifles.
The match conditions applied to all shooters, in all classes.
You don't go to a match, and then start beaking about the match conditions which apply to each and every competitor, demanding special treatment.
One shooter has chosen to whine on the 'net. Get over it.
What he is whining about, I don't know - apparently the rifle has never lost a match. How can you improve on perfection?
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That's perfectly fine with me. Would require clarification/direction from match director/range officer as to exact procedure for pair shooting. But it should solve the problem of fouling a clean barrel. Just declare "going for record" before taking your first convertible sighter. The time used would come off the the shooters clock.
NormB
I didnt start this post to debate the need for blow offs. Blow offs is just one of many subjects that comes up to expose what I consider the real problem. There just is not enough F Class people involved in match planning. F Class is new so that is natural, but it needs to change. While I'm not personally in a good position help out myself, it would be nice to see if F Class people who are in a good position could get more involved. That way we wouldnt be tag alongs at someone else's party.
But since everyone wants to discuss blow offs....
Savex buddy, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. You just dont seem to see the simple irony of the example I put forth. If a guy wants blow offs and cant get them at the match, then he can shoot the gun off somewhere before the match. That way it is not a problem for him when he gets there. However, cops can find a way to hassle people for just about anything and nobody needs to draw attention to themselves by firing off a rifle somewhere, even in the middle of nowhere where he THINKS it's legal, when they are on the way to a perfectly certified legal military rifle range. Just because some narrow minded and short sighted person wants to pick nickles and waive the 150 year old rule book around.
If you think ratling a cloth bag full of chicken bones on the barrel of your gun helps it shoot, I'm not about to stop you because it wasnt permitted in the rule book. I dont care, go ahead, knock yourself out.
Just the same, who cares about blow offs. They dont need to be included in the rule book at all, just like your trusty bag of chicken bones. That does not mean blow offs should not be permitted AS A COURTESSY if a guy would like them.
Blow offs dont even need to be done from the match firing line. They could be done from the 100 yard firing line before the match. It does not need to be a way to sneak in a couple extra sighers or inconvienience the other shooters.
Even if blow offs were used in the morning as part of confirming a 100 yard zero for those that would like it, I dont see that as something I would not personally support, again out of coutessy. Things go on during a match where people need to tighten sights, remove scopes, clean oil or water out from between action and stock, tighten barrels etc. I would much preffer these guys come to the firing line ready to go, rather than being a full revolution out on thier scope and slowing down that match. Besides, I wouldnt feel good about winning a match over something like that. Again, rule book aside, out of professional courtessy and a sense of fair play.
But since everyone wants to discuss blow offs....
Savex buddy, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. You just dont seem to see the simple irony of the example I put forth. If a guy wants blow offs and cant get them at the match, then he can shoot the gun off somewhere before the match. That way it is not a problem for him when he gets there. However, cops can find a way to hassle people for just about anything and nobody needs to draw attention to themselves by firing off a rifle somewhere, even in the middle of nowhere where he THINKS it's legal, when they are on the way to a perfectly certified legal military rifle range. Just because some narrow minded and short sighted person wants to pick nickles and waive the 150 year old rule book around.
If you think ratling a cloth bag full of chicken bones on the barrel of your gun helps it shoot, I'm not about to stop you because it wasnt permitted in the rule book. I dont care, go ahead, knock yourself out.
Just the same, who cares about blow offs. They dont need to be included in the rule book at all, just like your trusty bag of chicken bones. That does not mean blow offs should not be permitted AS A COURTESSY if a guy would like them.
Blow offs dont even need to be done from the match firing line. They could be done from the 100 yard firing line before the match. It does not need to be a way to sneak in a couple extra sighers or inconvienience the other shooters.
Even if blow offs were used in the morning as part of confirming a 100 yard zero for those that would like it, I dont see that as something I would not personally support, again out of coutessy. Things go on during a match where people need to tighten sights, remove scopes, clean oil or water out from between action and stock, tighten barrels etc. I would much preffer these guys come to the firing line ready to go, rather than being a full revolution out on thier scope and slowing down that match. Besides, I wouldnt feel good about winning a match over something like that. Again, rule book aside, out of professional courtessy and a sense of fair play.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Why not just bring a fouled rifle to a match? I do.
If a barrel needs to be cleaned after a day or two of shooting BUT needs fouling shots to settle down, try this.
While testing your barrel/practising, run a DRY or two patch down the bore after you have fired as many shots as you feel its time for your barrel to be cleaned. Odds are your next shot is right in the group and you have retained the accuracy of a cleaned then fouled barrel.
You are just getting rid of the surface soot.
I came up with this because blow offs are usually not available at the match(s) I attend and I had a really nice shooting barrel that would not put the first few rds into the group after cleaning. By keeping it dirty but not enough to ruin accuracy, I was also able to shoot some very good matches, winning a few.
Give it a try.
Jerry
If a barrel needs to be cleaned after a day or two of shooting BUT needs fouling shots to settle down, try this.
While testing your barrel/practising, run a DRY or two patch down the bore after you have fired as many shots as you feel its time for your barrel to be cleaned. Odds are your next shot is right in the group and you have retained the accuracy of a cleaned then fouled barrel.
You are just getting rid of the surface soot.
I came up with this because blow offs are usually not available at the match(s) I attend and I had a really nice shooting barrel that would not put the first few rds into the group after cleaning. By keeping it dirty but not enough to ruin accuracy, I was also able to shoot some very good matches, winning a few.
Give it a try.
Jerry
Jerry,
My rifle really started shooting well when I adopted my current thourough cleaning routine. I examine the bore and clean until I am certain it is absolutely free of copper. The consequence of that is the unpredictability of the first few shots. Once that first layer of copper builds up on the rifling after those few shots, everything settles down real nice, but it seems to throw the occasional flyer later in the day. I've never gone to the trouble of counting exactly how many rounds that takes and there may be some middle ground somewhere, I dont know. I guess I just like what I've been doing because it has worked for me all this time.
My rifle really started shooting well when I adopted my current thourough cleaning routine. I examine the bore and clean until I am certain it is absolutely free of copper. The consequence of that is the unpredictability of the first few shots. Once that first layer of copper builds up on the rifling after those few shots, everything settles down real nice, but it seems to throw the occasional flyer later in the day. I've never gone to the trouble of counting exactly how many rounds that takes and there may be some middle ground somewhere, I dont know. I guess I just like what I've been doing because it has worked for me all this time.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I started tracking cause I wanted to make sure the barrel didn't go 'off' around shot 60 something in a 75rd match. Unfortunately, it did, so I started mucking about with ways to keep it shooting the full match weekend without chemical cleaning - same issue as you.
Maybe it was forgetfullness or frustration, a dry patch swabbed the bore and I started shooting. Lo and behold it worked. Tried it again and again and got the same thing.
Of course, at some point this doesn't work anymore and you need to chem clean but as long as I get through my match weekend, who cares.
That barrel (sadly gone now) would put cold bore on Sunday into the group which was nice since I had only 2 convertible sighters.
My present Shilen seems to be alot more tolerant of shooting dirty so I may be able to just leave it for the weekend but it is still quite new.
Will monitor is during practise and see if things change. Then try various 'dry' methods of keeping it on track.
Another option would be MOLY. This has worked very well for me in production barrels that copper. I am presently using it again in a match barrel that is showing pressures way early. Shoots fantastically so moly is helping.
In general, for match quality barrels, I consider MOLY more of a pain then its worth. But another tool to draw from.
Good luck with your tweaking... I don't see rules changing anytime soon.
Jerry
Maybe it was forgetfullness or frustration, a dry patch swabbed the bore and I started shooting. Lo and behold it worked. Tried it again and again and got the same thing.
Of course, at some point this doesn't work anymore and you need to chem clean but as long as I get through my match weekend, who cares.
That barrel (sadly gone now) would put cold bore on Sunday into the group which was nice since I had only 2 convertible sighters.
My present Shilen seems to be alot more tolerant of shooting dirty so I may be able to just leave it for the weekend but it is still quite new.
Will monitor is during practise and see if things change. Then try various 'dry' methods of keeping it on track.
Another option would be MOLY. This has worked very well for me in production barrels that copper. I am presently using it again in a match barrel that is showing pressures way early. Shoots fantastically so moly is helping.
In general, for match quality barrels, I consider MOLY more of a pain then its worth. But another tool to draw from.
Good luck with your tweaking... I don't see rules changing anytime soon.
Jerry
Now THAT makes sense to me. Thank you Sir.
On a different matter, just so I (as a newbie) can understand the difference between the disciplines who appear to be at war here, can somebody please provide a link where I can go to read up on the various rules?
Thanks.
F-Class and TR are not " at war". F-Class descended from TR shooting. Most of our matches are combined events, as we use targets that can be adapted for both. F-Class is new, evolving, and against some people's liking, its destiny is determined by institutions and traditions have have existed since long before there was "F-Class".
Those that are not part of the solution are part of the problem when it comes to sowing divisive and acrimonious comments about one discipline or the other. It's like the difference between fly fishermen and spin casters... NASCAR and F1. In a perfect world we would have facilities and numbers that would justify both sports holding thier own matches and determinig thier own destinies. The fact remains that the two sports are inextricably linked; we could better grow and develop both disciplines with cooperation and collaboration - not confrontation.
Those that are not part of the solution are part of the problem when it comes to sowing divisive and acrimonious comments about one discipline or the other. It's like the difference between fly fishermen and spin casters... NASCAR and F1. In a perfect world we would have facilities and numbers that would justify both sports holding thier own matches and determinig thier own destinies. The fact remains that the two sports are inextricably linked; we could better grow and develop both disciplines with cooperation and collaboration - not confrontation.
That's the whole point. If you have a clean barrel Friday night, how do you bring a fouled barrel Saturday morning. Drive 120km round trip to my home range to shoot 3 shots. Anybody who has used a chronograph knows the first shot is 70fps slow and the next couple come up to the average.
NormB
I most sincerly hope not Sir, and I mean no disrespect, but as a "newbie" reading some of the comments on this thread thus far I'm afraid that is the impression one might get. We are all in this together as a hobby, just different interests. We HAVE to get along. We have enough problems as a group with the "anties" without arguing with each other.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
NormB, I am stating the obvious so not trying to be a smart A$$. Whenever you were at the range last, you likely cleaned your rifle thus the clean bore.
why not just send a few rds downrange while you are at the range.
Now you have a perfectly fouled bore ready for the match.
Jerry
Dude I am not part of any problem. I don't shoot either discipline. I do however shoot and compete in shooting matches than probably 99% of the people on this entire forum. And I know what rules I'm going to run into at every match I shoot. For instance the match I just shot in Czech, I knew that one of the rules went against my grain, but wanted to shoot the match, so I sucked it up. If it bothered me enough that considering an illegal act or potentially so, was the only way for to consider participating, I wouldn't have gone. Its that simple. You are trying to back pedal on a ridiculous statement that you made and all you are doing is digging a deeper pit to stand in.
I'm not trying to back pedal out of anything and I'm not comfortable with you trying to twist my statements out of context.
The option here is not simply like the rules or quit. This is supposed to be fun.
The rule book does not say that on the day of every match that organizers are prohibited from offering anyone a few shots BEFORE the commencement of the match? As I said, it's out of simple comon courtessy more than anything else.
Slavex, since admittedly you dont compete in F Class, I am left to assume that is why you have such a muted appreciation for the point I'm making here and perhaps it's best you stick to airsoft, paintball or whatever it is that you do know.
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