Zed Is Not Your Friend

ok, let me voice this opinion... what kind of person shoots reloads at a 1000 rnd 2 day course ??? come on.. go factory or go home.

ALL of the problems I have seen at IDPA or a Tactical Course where 95% people using reloads... "it worked fine in the sig, it should work in the ***"
 
TIM_COX said:
ok, let me voice this opinion... what kind of person shoots reloads at a 1000 rnd 2 day course ??? come on.. go factory or go home.

ALL of the problems I have seen at IDPA or a Tactical Course where 95% people using reloads... "it worked fine in the sig, it should work in the ***"
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What?

Anyone that shoots 30K+ per year maybe?

Reloads can be and should be better tuned to your gun if you are doing it properly. In my experience it is the gun's fault as much if not more then the ammo's for function problems.
 
I think CZ's are generally great guns. But like any gun you plan to race with you have to get to know the strengths and weaknesses of the platform and plan accordingly. ALL guns used in IPSC will eat springs, and extractor springs especially take a beating. Even my Aftec extractor, which is pretty much accepted as the best there is in a 19/2011 platform, will choke if I don't stay on top of cleaning and maintenance. But that isn't the fault of the part or the gun; it's mine.

With any gun intended for competition, you have to:
Make sure your ammo is at the correct OAL for THAT GUN. Make sure your ammo is of high quality. I've seen tons of people carp about their guns, and then end up stunned when I prove the problem actually boils down to an ammo issue.
Maintain your springs and clean the areas you can't see (extractor channel).
Make sure you have good magazines and that they are properly spec'd and of course, clean them. Springs and followers in good condition also.
Balance your load and power factor against your recoil spring and tune both to taste. If the gun feels sluggish at 130 PF and won't reliably feed/eject, then bump it to 140! Or adjust load variables until you hit the magic sweet-spot. Note that typically, CZ's are over-sprung for 125 pf out of the box.
Oil is your friend. CZ pattern guns like to run wet. I can't tell you how many guns I've "fixed" at the range for people over the years by just cleaning them and giving them some juice.
 
SVISTI1911 said:
What?

Anyone that shoots 30K+ per year maybe?

Reloads can be and should be better tuned to your gun if you are doing it properly. In my experience it is the gun's fault as much if not more then the ammo's for function problems.
Click to expand...

so your saying someone who is to cheap to buy 1k of factory for a course is what your saying....

your spending GOOD money on training I think you should at least try to keep the variables to a minimum as far as failures go.... again, my experience has been night after night watching guys who reload having problems.

if you remove just one thing from the equation... blah blah blah....
 
Good Point.... If your using reloads at a training course your asking for trouble unless you are 100% sure of your reloads.
Good points by Rob also... know your platform and it's inherent stregnths and weaknesses...
I'd still take a CZ over most other pistols out there....

TIM_COX said:
so your saying someone who is to cheap to buy 1k of factory for a course is what your saying....

your spending GOOD money on training I think you should at least try to keep the variables to a minimum as far as failures go.... again, my experience has been night after night watching guys who reload having problems.

if you remove just one thing from the equation... blah blah blah....
Click to expand...
 
In my opinion this is a stupid rant. There are many other factors that might lead to malfunctions as others have suggested. I would bet that a good number of newer shooters (including myself) that would be drawn to the CZ are right up in there messing around with it and doing all kinds of crazy stuff with their reloads. The price you pay is in malfunctions, but the payoff is that you learn what makes your gun function correctly. I like to get on hate bandwagons from time to time:), but a couple of guns shooting reloads at a course malfunctioned...........get out of town!:eek: maybe on the way back from the range his Ford/Chev/Dodge broke down, those are all crap too.
 
TIM_COX said:
so your saying someone who is to cheap to buy 1k of factory for a course is what your saying....

your spending GOOD money on training I think you should at least try to keep the variables to a minimum as far as failures go.... again, my experience has been night after night watching guys who reload having problems.

if you remove just one thing from the equation... blah blah blah....
Click to expand...

It's a good point Tim, but if you are at the point where you are spending money on a course you should probably have already done the homework on your loads. If you know what you are doing reloads should be at least as good as factory, and ideally would be tuned to your specific gun.

Having said that, not many people actually do the homework so factory ammo provides at least a base-line of functionality.
 
I use to have lots of stove pipes with my Shadow (124 or 147GR bullets) and they went away when I shorten the OAL. At 1.115" I could have 1 SP out of 10 rounds fired. Now that my OAL is at 1.095", I have one out of 1000 rounds fired (actually I don't remember the last one).

I agree that changing the extractor spring every 5k rounds and cleaning the extractor housing often helps a lot too

SB
 
TIM_COX said:
.... again, my experience has been night after night watching guys who reload having problems.
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Then you shoot with a bunch of people who don't know how to reload. I'm sure if they really are really that careless...they'd find some way to f**k up shooting factory rounds. :cool:

Don't blame reloading...

There are no suitable factory rounds for the vast majority of IPSC guns in the Standard and Open Division...reloading is not an option...it's a requirement.
 
Just to reiterate what Bob said. The Shadow in particular of the CZ pistols is certainly overspring for cartridges loaded to 125ish PF. A reduced recoil spring solves most of the problems. As to guns jamming from reloads. Well miss taking off the belling when you reload on one bullet and you will get a jam 99% of the time - don't ask how I know this. I check all my ammo before a match and would do so if I spent money on a handgun course.

Tim .45acp goes for around $45.00 a box up here in the boonies, 9MM goes for right around $20 which means to go factory would set me back $900 for .45acp for two days shooting with the .45acp or $400 for 9MM. A thousand rds of both cartridges reloaded cost me about $60 per thousand ($44.00 for primers and about $16 for powder, I cast my own bullets). Lets see $900 and no jams, vs $60 and maybe a jam???? Nothing on the line accept the Instructor who shoots a Glock lecturing on how they never jam and X pistol always does. Hell for that matter nothing on the line at a match other than a 12 cent certificate. $900. vs $60. The difference would pay for another course or more components for even more shooting.

If I go with AIM bullets the cost rises for both around $100 per thousand which makes the difference if my math is right $160 vs $900 or $160 vs $400.

If some instructor thinks my CZ is totally inadequate for CCW which I can't do anyway, then good on him. Loaded with defensive ammo in a jurisdiction that allowed me to carry the CZ's will do just fine IMHO.

Take Care

Bob
 
Quigley said:
Then you shoot with a bunch of people who don't know how to reload. I'm sure if they really are really that careless...they'd find some way to f**k up shooting factory rounds. :cool:

Don't blame reloading...

There are no suitable factory rounds for the vast majority of IPSC guns in the Standard and Open Division...reloading is not an option...it's a requirement.
Click to expand...

Not to say you are wrong, as I have little experience with .38 super..etc.., but my standard .40 tanfoglio runs great on Canadian BDX loaded .40 ammo. I guess I am lucky.;)
 
Quigley said:
I didn't say all :cool: ...and BDX is not "factory"
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Some "factory" ammo is much crappier then some reloads. Even in my limited experience I saw squibs and double-loads in factory ammo made by Winchester and Remington. So, personally I trust my own reloads much more.

But getting back to reliability, there is several factors that contribute to CZ issues. One of them is crappy OFM magazines for CZ. We need to prepare a list of well known issues and send it to CZ trough an official CZ distributor in Canada, which happens to be CRAFM (aka Frank N.). At least that is what I've been told by one of CZ executives.
 
Todd shoots an HK. His opinion was based on the performance of 4 guns on the course. He gets paid to provide an opinion on a lot less. I really don't see the issue here. His article was meant to be equal parts informative and humor, and it was meant to inspire discussion. I think it worked all the way round.
 
TIM_COX said:
ok, let me voice this opinion... what kind of person shoots reloads at a 1000 rnd 2 day course ??? come on.. go factory or go home.

ALL of the problems I have seen at IDPA or a Tactical Course where 95% people using reloads... "it worked fine in the sig, it should work in the ***"
Click to expand...

Were they using their own reloads or factory reloads?
Personally, I trust my own reloads 100x more than factory new ammo, and it shows when I have no issues during COF.

If those reloaders are inexperienced or don't take their time to finesse the loads - crimp, OAL, powder selection and charge, velosity, inspect every round, primer seating and sort brass by headstamp.... well, they just make crappy ammo.
 
TIM_COX said:
so your saying someone who is to cheap to buy 1k of factory for a course is what your saying....

your spending GOOD money on training I think you should at least try to keep the variables to a minimum as far as failures go.... again, my experience has been night after night watching guys who reload having problems.

if you remove just one thing from the equation... blah blah blah....
Click to expand...

No I am saying you should be sure your ammo works in your gun before you spend GOOD money on a course. Maybe you should spend some TIME with your ammo and your gun on the range first!

If you don't care to spend the time to ensure your ammo works in your gun you deserve what you get. It's YOUR fault, not the gun's and not the ammo's regardless of the pistol and regardless of whether it is factory or reloaded ammo.

So what you are saying is the guys you shoot with don't know how to reload. In over 15 years my experience has been night after night reloads are as dependable as factory (if not more) if you know what your are doing. If not, spend some GOOD money on a book and learn how to reload properly.

Price of loading is only one benefit. As Rob E. says loading your own ammo you can tune it to your gun so it functions at it's best. Factory ammo or reloaded ammo will function different in the same model of firearm in the same caliber. Loading your own allows you to tailor fit the ammo to your firearm, you can't do that with factory because it is made to function in as many guns as possible at a acceptable level, not at it's best potential.
 
Slavex said:
Todd shoots an HK. His opinion was based on the performance of 4 guns on the course. He gets paid to provide an opinion on a lot less. I really don't see the issue here. His article was meant to be equal parts informative and humor, and it was meant to inspire discussion. I think it worked all the way round.
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Isn't Todd being paid to shoot HK? Some would call his article a black PR...
 
No Todd is not being paid to shoot HK, HK has provided him with a pistol to put 50,000 rounds through on their dime. As with previous guns he's tested, the manufacturer pays for the gun and the ammo, and Todd writes about it. All the failures, all the breakages, everything. And it certainly doesn't win him any favors with some of the companies. But even with some of the harsh words he had for the HKP30, HK gave him a 45 to test this year. They at least recognized the value in what he's doing.
 
Slavex said:
No Todd is not being paid to shoot HK, HK has provided him with a pistol to put 50,000 rounds through on their dime. As with previous guns he's tested, the manufacturer pays for the gun and the ammo, and Todd writes about it. All the failures, all the breakages, everything. And it certainly doesn't win him any favors with some of the companies. But even with some of the harsh words he had for the HKP30, HK gave him a 45 to test this year. They at least recognized the value in what he's doing.
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HK45=very nice. I want.
 
Well, after reading all this - I have to chalk the original post link right up with everything else I read on the
Internet (and especially gunnutz, - right Wes?)
Anyone can say anything on the Internet, especially when we have no idea who they are.

So who's Todd? The website link in post 1 says nothing about him.

If I knew who he was; I'd be better able to weight his comments - the fact that Rob hired him for training gives me the indication he has some abilty, but I'd like to know more. Competition or tactical guy?
 
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