ok, silly but kinda important decision. for my 4.2" Ruger GP100, which will easily take both, should i start with and stick with 38 or 357? the (sucky) reality is that i'm gonna have to "bite the bullet" and reload since it seems getting the ammo is gonna be hard (SFRC has no 38 at all right now), so this means i gotta fork over a few bucks for reloading crap. since i'm shooting IDPA, does it make more sense to use 38 brass and just load it hot, or to use 357 brass and water it down? i guess the question is - which case is more versatile and more sensible. i'd probably need to budget having around 250 rounds in total since i can likely burn through 150 or so on a single service day. not sure how many i'd need on a match day, though.....
38 or 357?
- Thread starter BP7
- Start date
there's no reason that you can't use 357 cases loaded to 38 spcial levels- they both use the same bullet- the bonus is that the 357s won't leave a "crud ring" in the cylinder- then when you want to up to the magnum,you just BOOST YOUR POWDER CHARGE
hmm, good point on the crud ring. the flip side - can a 38 be loaded up to magnum power levels, or is the case just too short to pack that much powder into it reliably? and will the 38's primer (standard versus magnum) be an issue at that point?
Use whichever case you can get most readily and affordable. I would have some reluctance about overloading 38spl cases because its meant to designate a 38spl safe load. I guess what are the odds someone else uses them in their 38spl only gun, but still I would only load 357 cases to beyond 38spl loads.
You can safely load .38Spl +P+ (which approaches magnum strength) and shoot them in your Ruger. You just have to clean the chambers a little more. I've shot (and everyone else has) thousands of .38Spl out of my .357 with no bother. .38Spl brass is cheap and easy to come by. Hell I'll give you some if you're in Kingston.
- Location
- Ottawa origanally Muskoka
Buy a gun in .357 and simply down load for reduced recoil so it feels like a 38spl (wich is identical minus about .030" case length and a semi balloon case head from some ammo suppliers (except for +p 38'spl which are solid heads like 357's)
so i just did some math, and figured out how much of this stuff i'd likely go through. looks like around 1,000 rounds a month if i shoot my revolver exclusively (well, the 22LR will always get shot, but that's besides the point).
i'd say 75% of the time i'd load it to 38 power levels, and 25% would get loaded to 357 power levels (though in either case, i'd be using the same brass, so no mixing of 38 AND 357). how long will 38 brass last at that rate if i used the same brass for both levels? would 357 last longer if used for both levels?
i'd say 75% of the time i'd load it to 38 power levels, and 25% would get loaded to 357 power levels (though in either case, i'd be using the same brass, so no mixing of 38 AND 357). how long will 38 brass last at that rate if i used the same brass for both levels? would 357 last longer if used for both levels?
My sugestion to you is get some 38 cases. The reason being is that down the road you may get the two loads mixed up. If you have both cases as soon as you look at them you will know right away which is which. Load the 38 cases to 38 levels and the 357 cases to the magnum levels. As one poster stated the 38 cases can be had for almost nothing and in some cases people will give them to you for nothing just to get rid of them.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
OK you mentioned IPDA. I am not yet into this game but have been thinking about it. I already have all the gear, except for speedloader pouches. Main reason for the procrastination is that the closest range that runs IDPA is an hour away. If ever they do IDPA at my club which is 15 minutes from my home, I am in for sure.
Back to your question. The Power Factor Floor for Enhanced and Service Revolver is only 125,000. That means you only need to push 158 grain38/357 to 791.14 feet per second. FYI, I only have 6 inch-barreled revolvers and the info that follows relate to that barrel length.
That velocity is within the capability of my regular 38 spl loads of 158 grain heads over 3.7 grains Titegroup or 700X. However, for competition, I would load .1 or .2 grain more, just to make sure I make the PF floor.
As well, in keeping with the spirit of IDPA, I will want to use ammo that best replicates SD ammo and so a little more kick just adds to the fun.
Another thing. The .357 Magnum was developed in the 1930s using .38 special cases in large framed S&W revolvers. .38 spl brass is plenty strong.
I haven`t checked this yet, but some say that wall thickness of .38 and 357 brass is identical.
Furthermore, I regularly load 38 spl to +P or more velocities (4.3-4.4 700X or Titegroup under 158 grn RN or SWC TL bullets). Doesn't seem to hurt the brass. These loads produce 1,000 fps out of my 6 inch GP100 or S&W 686, for a PF of 158,000. The fired brass falls out of my cylinders and primer exhibit no over-pressure signs.
I also have a a substantial amount of 357 brass but have only bothered to load a few hundred to full 357 magnum loads using magnum powder. Never felt the need except to see beautiful fireballs during evening shoots.
357 brass expensive and hard to come by. 38 spl is cheap.
So my recommendation is start with 38 spl. Load high or low to your hearts desire. You can use 38 brass your whole life and will not miss much.
The 38spl crud ring is a non-issue for me. I shoot 500 or more rounds between cleanings and have not experienced .357 brass failures to eject. Maybe it is the higher 38 spl loads I use which completely burn the powder for less residue. YMMV
If you really want to load full or maximum 357 loads, then use 357 brass if that makes you happy.
You can also afford to lose the 38 brass during competitions. I`d hate to leave 357 brass behind.
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The crud ring issue from using .38's and then wanting to blast off a few .357's at the end of the day is highly overblown from what I've seen. I mix things up on a regular basis and at worse I have to lightly press the .357's into place. And I do mean lightly. And even that is a fairly rare requirement. Mind you I'd imagine that the degree of crud ring build up will depend on the powder being used and how much residue it leaves and under what conditions. But with all the various .38 ammo I've shot it has not been any sort of serious issue. I've never NOT been able to load some .357 even after a few sessions of cleaning neglect.
So by all means shoot a regular diet of .38Spl with some desert of .357 Magnum. Or mix it up with some Revolver Roullete where you load 5 .38Spl and one .357 then while looking up you spin the cylinder and then stop it and pivot it into place. Not knowing where the .357 round is sure does point out to you if you still have a flinch issue or not....
So by all means shoot a regular diet of .38Spl with some desert of .357 Magnum. Or mix it up with some Revolver Roullete where you load 5 .38Spl and one .357 then while looking up you spin the cylinder and then stop it and pivot it into place. Not knowing where the .357 round is sure does point out to you if you still have a flinch issue or not....
bigdaddyeo
Regular
- Location
- Canning, NS
Just get the .357's and skip on the .38's. I reload both and find that I don't even bother reloading .38's anymore unless I'm bringing newbies. You'll get bored of .38's bang real fast.
Something to consider would be to use 125g projectiles instead of 158g in .357 cases. It definitely would be a 'softer' shooting round but I don't know if this would meet the IPDA power factor requirements. FWIW, my target loads use a 125g truncated cone jacketed projectile and 6.7g of Titegroup.
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well, i'm heading to the range today and bringing my GP100 with me, along with a few boxes of 38 and 357. we'll see just how "enjoyable" factory loads are in that piece, in both calibers.
but it looks like overall i'll use both case sizes - keep the 357 size for IDPA match loads that just barely make power factor, and use 38 cases for practice days that ignore power factors and use up less powder. it SEEMS that a reloading jig for 357 will handle the 38 just as well, which makes things easier.
but it looks like overall i'll use both case sizes - keep the 357 size for IDPA match loads that just barely make power factor, and use 38 cases for practice days that ignore power factors and use up less powder. it SEEMS that a reloading jig for 357 will handle the 38 just as well, which makes things easier.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
.38 spl will most definitely make the PF floor of 125,000. It is really easy to load 38 spl brass to make the power floor, as I mentioned a few posts back. You can even load 38 spl brass to almost full load 357 magnum, of course you need to shoot these out of 357 magnum guns. We all know to never give out our 38 spl reloads to anyone else, right?
Correct me if I am wrong but the 38 spl is considered the "floor" of service pistol cartridges. The idea behind IDPA is to use service type weapons from service/defensive type rigs, shooting defensive type ammo, in games using typical self-defense scenarios. Only one class of IDPA (Custom, IIRC) uses 165000 PF minimum, and that is for .45 caliber weapons only. If you had a need to, you can quite easily load the .38 spl to 165K PF, with 158 grain heads as well.
Using expensive hard to find 357 brass and losing them during matches is a downer.
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I would just use .38 cases to make power factor for IDPA; they're a lot cheaper (especially if you lose some during competition) and the shorter case makes for faster reloads. Use the magnum cases for full power loads.
For the amount of shooting you will be doing, you will need a good progressive press. I would seriously consider having two toolheads set up; one for .38 and one for .357 Magnum. While one die set will do either, you need to adjust case mouth expanding, seating, and crimping for the two different cases. Two die sets/toolheads will save you a lot of setup time in the long run.
Depending on how powerful you want your full power loads to be, you could just standardize on .38 cases for everything and come pretty close to .357 velocities. You can safely load either case to the same pressure in a .357 revolver. Elmer Keith used .38 cases to load his 173 grain bullets in S&W .357 revolvers because the short cylinders would otherwise require that the bullet be seated such that the crimp went over the shoulder rather than the crimp groove.
For the amount of shooting you will be doing, you will need a good progressive press. I would seriously consider having two toolheads set up; one for .38 and one for .357 Magnum. While one die set will do either, you need to adjust case mouth expanding, seating, and crimping for the two different cases. Two die sets/toolheads will save you a lot of setup time in the long run.
Depending on how powerful you want your full power loads to be, you could just standardize on .38 cases for everything and come pretty close to .357 velocities. You can safely load either case to the same pressure in a .357 revolver. Elmer Keith used .38 cases to load his 173 grain bullets in S&W .357 revolvers because the short cylinders would otherwise require that the bullet be seated such that the crimp went over the shoulder rather than the crimp groove.
.. Consider the potential safety issues; If you shoot with, give or otherwise allow someone other than yourself to use the HOT .38 Specials, it may NOT be safe in their Revolver. ...... Prudence, to me, would be to keep the two cartridges/brass completely separate when it comes to "Loads'! Obviously, it presents no safety issues if the 357 Magnum, is loaded DOWN to the 38 Special levels. .... David K
I've just switched to SSR using a 4.2 GP 100.
I'm running 357's using my preferred powders starting load. On paper it lists 158gr bullet running 1100fps =PF of 173800. I thought why worry about if a 38 load meets PF. And all that extra cleaning of that ring of crud.
I've found the 357 load is easily manageable in the Ruger.
I'm running 357's using my preferred powders starting load. On paper it lists 158gr bullet running 1100fps =PF of 173800. I thought why worry about if a 38 load meets PF. And all that extra cleaning of that ring of crud.
I've found the 357 load is easily manageable in the Ruger.
