How reliable are LE military sights?

Northman999

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Fellows,

I'm wondering how reliable the sights on Lee Enfield No 1 and No 4 rifles (maybe P14's if someone knows) in terms of your groups actually hitting on target, as per ranges dialed up on your rear sight?

If a fellow did up some handloads to emulate military ammo used in these rifles, is he really going to be able to just dial up his back sight from 100 - 500 yards and really be right where he wants to be?

Thanks for your expertise!
 
They are quite accurate with FMJ, soft points tend to drop more at any given distance. The sights on most of the No.4's are much more adjustable than the tangent sight models. Handloading some flatter shooting rounds would definitely help make it alot closer.
 
Using military spec ammo they're just about dead on, but if they're high or low for you, just change out the front sight untill they're 100% - for windage you move the front sight too. Also keep in mind the "battle sight" (the big ring) really isn't designed for target shooting, it's more for 'minute of charging enemy' situations
 
When the Americans got involved in World War One, they built a whole whack of M-1917 Browning HMGs, sent them to France and then discovered that their fine theories as to what the .30 M-1906 SHOULD do were considerably at variance with what they actually WOULD do. A purchase ensued of 173-grain BT bullets from the Swiss and things were underway for the development of the Ball Cartridge, caliber .30, M-1.

The British, in their unimaginative, plodding manner, tested the rifles and the ammunition together BEFORE manufacturing umpty-zillion sets of sights.

The end result is that you can aim the British rifles and they WILL hit what you are shooting at, at any range, if you have a rifle in good order, hold it right, dope your wind correctly and have ammunition duplicating the Ball specifications for the period in which your rifle's sights were set. For rifles made from 1910 until the end of .303 rifle production, this was the Ball Mark VII round, which used a flatbased 174-grain bullet of 3-piece construction with rather a long ogive and left the rifle at a nominal 2440 ft/sec.

The problem today is that no-one on this part of the map manufactures the Mark VII bullet. They ARE still in production in India and Pakistan both and likely in other countries as well, but nobody is importing them. SIERRA makes a nice 180 flatbase in their Pro-Hunter series and this is a good accurate bullet in most rifles with Enfield rifling. Its 6 extra grains of weight is not much of an issue and can be overcome. The problem is with its SHAPE. You can start it off at 2440 allright, but it does not buck the air as well as would the Mark VII. It can't, because its ogive is the wrong shape. To manufacture a bullet with a lead or lead/antimony core for the .303, and have it the same shape and the same length as a Mark VII, would result in a bullet of something like 200 grains' weight. That internal aluminum/paper/plastic/compressed doggie doodoo/whatever tip does a lot of things all at the same time. It gives the bullet the length it needs to flow through the air efficiently and it keeps the weight down. It also rebalances the bullet for more accurate shooting as well as for a certain amount of impact-instability AND it reduces the overall specific gravity of the projectile. The Mark VII bullet is a complex piece of very excellent engineering and it cannot be duplicated precisely in any other manner.

I would think that if it were possible to get some and then re-shape the tips, that Winchester 180 Silver-Tips might serve as the basis for a "Mock Mark VII".

The best solution, though, would be to ask very nicely if Greenwood and Bately or Crompton-Parkinson or someone might run us off a batch of Service bullets. Ideal would be Trade-Ex or Marstar importing a few tons of REAL ones from Ishapur or Dum Dum or POF in Wah Cantt.... and then putting them out at prices we can afford.

THEN we could all go to the range.

Five bucks sez the old Smellie outshoots the Number 4 at 1000 and another five sez the Ross outshoots them both!
 
"...handloads to emulate military ammo..." Slug the barrel first. Most barrels are not .311" diameter. The barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" it's shot out.
Then work up the load to get around 2440 fps with a 174 grain bullet. The No. 1 was a flat based bullet. The No. 4's a boat tail.
Hornady makes a .3105" 174 gr FMJBT and a .312" 150 gr SP. They used to make a flat based bullet too. They no longer list it, but you might find 'em in the shops.
Sierra and Speer make .311" bullets. Sierra makes a Matchking plus hunting bullets. Speer just hunting bullets.
 
"...The No. 1 was a flat based bullet. The No. 4's a boat tail....

?

As mentionned above, from 1910 until the end of production, standard rifle ammunition was the Mk. VII or VIIz cartridge, which used the 174gr flat based bullet. The Mk. VIII cartridge used a boattailed bullet; it was intended for the Vickers gun, and had enhanced long range performance. Rifle sight calibrations don't work with the Mk. VIII load, in any of the .303 service rifles. You can zero for one range, but after that the calibrations won't mean much.
The Mk. VII bullet had the core exposed at the base, and tended to slug up when fired. This compensated for bore variations much better than a closed base or boattailed bullet. These latter types are about the only style available now.

OK, precision of the sight calibrations.....
I am going to suggest that these are approximately correct. Variation in rifles, ammunition and environmental conditions will prevent the calibrations from being precise.
Elevation increments on the SMLE sight are actually finer than on the Mk. I sight used on early and post war No. 4s. Those little notches on the wheel actually mean something.
After the windgauge feature was eliminated from the SMLE ca. 1916, no Lee Enfield service sights incorporated provision for windage adjustment.
For zeroing, elevation was set by changing front sights, windage by shifting the front sight laterally.
 
"...handloads to emulate military ammo..." Slug the barrel first. Most barrels are not .311" diameter. The barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" it's shot out.
Then work up the load to get around 2440 fps with a 174 grain bullet. The No. 1 was a flat based bullet. The No. 4's a boat tail.
Hornady makes a .3105" 174 gr FMJBT and a .312" 150 gr SP. They used to make a flat based bullet too. They no longer list it, but you might find 'em in the shops.
Sierra and Speer make .311" bullets. Sierra makes a Matchking plus hunting bullets. Speer just hunting bullets.

My buddy pulled some FNB-87 which shot really well to make as close as possible a duplicate load.

The bullets were .314 open base 174 gr MkVii type bullets...
 
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