90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

Well, we know for sure 7 twist is the way to go. 7.7 and even an 8 twist WILL stabilize the 90's but you are right on the edge and a change in conditions and some barrels may no longer shoot. With more twist, no one has suggested any issues in a wide range of ambient conditions.

Can't think of a barrel maker that doesn't offer a 7 twist so barrels are covered.

Long throat indeed. My OAL length is approx 2.6" which is nearly as long as standard 308 ammo.

I have no doubt that shooters are getting some serious speeds from the 308 but pressure and recoil can never be discounted in this mix.

I have a new barrel on order from Shilen and when that arrives this fall, I will put some serious energy in getting a rig dialed in. New stock and bipod planned too - should make for a nice project over the winter months.

Like F Open, recoil is getting up there and some shooters are starting to shy away. The 223 option will open a whole lot of doors for younger shooters, women and shooters like me who don't like getting pounded.

I am really excited at what new powders may come. For sure, the tech will focus on the military needs to jazz up their AR's but that is definitely good for us. Of course, it will also help the 308 but there is that recoil thing again.

Now that I have figured out what needs to be done, tuning a 223 is no more difficult then a 308 or any other popular case.

Can't wait for my barrel to show up....

Jerry
 
Your speeds listed for the 90VLD are crazy low, if you are serious about shooting heavy bullets, 80 or 90gr you will need to get the throat lengthened. I am getting 2810fps out of mine with no trouble, I can go higher but the groups open up. Now run those numbers against a 75 AMAX at 2900....Even if you can get them screaming at 3100 the 90 still wins... My OAL is 2.695"
 
Budweiser360, what sort of velocity variations (SD or ES) are you getting with the 90s, and what sort of grouping do you think they are giving you at 600y?

Any way to twist your arm to come to NB or Ottawa and do some shooting/testing at 900m (or 1000m in NB)?
 
I'm not sure I'm the shooter you should be asking but I'd be there in a second if I could afford it. Going back to school in Sept seems to make me extra cheap. I haven't had enough chrony time yet to have an absolute answer, but my ES and SD numbers are definitely better with Varget as opposed to Re15, same with group size. I can't seem to get anything decent with Re15 so it has been moved to the back of the shelf for now. Would like to try some N140 or 150 but that may be next year.

In the near future we will be stretching it out and I will try to get a few targets in the mix. Next year would be a great time to get some good hard data as my new barrel will be in and there will be one less variable in the equation.

Well, when I make good wind calls (which are a great feeling BTW lol) I've had groups at about 1/2-5/8MOA at 600. Shot a 50-9 with one sneaking out the bottom, same day I clean the 300 with less than 1/2MOA group when looking at my plot sheet, 150-27 for the day. At out PRA last weekend I did a 75-10 at 600 with switching tail winds (at times more than 2MOA hold difference between shots) and drizzle. The next 600 I dropped a couple due to heavy rain and my scope really started to fog up, I couldn't even make out the bright red shot marker on the target.

I was happy with that as I still am not confident in my wind or mirage reading skills, but I think I am learning.
 
Dan the 185 load development was about the same. I found distance to lands, backed up 0.015" and shot 0.5 gr increments of N150 and Varget to assertain max charge. N150 seemed to shoot slightly tighter, so I backed a bit off from max, and loaded 50 rds to shoot at 600m at Batouche. That shot well, but was a bit warm, so I backed off a tad more, and loaded enough for Winnipeg. I did take enough of the old load, in case the wheels fell off, but it seemed to shoot about as accuratly as the 155.5's. I wouldn't asy load development is done, but it's pretty good. I can't be certian abouot velocity, but based on elevation, I'm about 2750-2800. This is all w/ a 31" 1-12" barrel, Rule 150 chamber, and Lapua brass.
 
These damn new Bergers are just so finicky, eh? ;-)

W.r.t. this thread's title, I think it would be a Good Thing if Mr. Berger were persuaded to build a 90-ish grain "Hybrid" bullet. The world of .223 TR and F-TR would really be helped by a high-performance non-fussy bullet the likes of the Berger 155.5 and Berger 185BT!

I'm actually doing "second stage" load development with my B155.5s now. Up til now I've used thrown charges of 44.5gr H4895 and non-weight-sorted Lapua brass. The five shots of that that I did chrono showed promising spreads (ES 33), and twelve shots on target at 900m grouped 1.3 MOA vertical (1.1 MOA excluding one shot). What I'll be testing today are weighed charges (to the nearest 0.1 grain), in weight sorted brass:

44.5, GM215M (baseline load)
44.1, GM215M
44.9, GM215M

I will fire 14 shots of each, hopefully this will give me a good idea of ES/SD at each of these three zones, and also an indication of how many fps per grain I am dealing with (that will help me decide on whether I should weigh or throw charges for my LR ammo).

I'll also test 44.5 grains of powder with Russian KVB-7 primers, to see if that's better or worse.

There you have my modest little testing regime for today. It's a good thing I am doing this with nice forgiving bullets, otherwise I might be in a really big crunch with the nationals less than a week away.

(P.S. I will be firing these at my new electronic target system - can't wait to show it to you in Ottawa!)
 
as for the 223 with 90 grainers - at the 2010 ORA match this past weekend - the F-Open at 300 yards was won by a FTR shooter with a 223, 7 inch twist and 90 grainers - 2 days in a row!

Varget was the powder

He beat everything from 6.5x47 lapua up to 7 mm wsm
 
I had the pleasure of speaking with Canadian Hall of Fame shooter, Clint Dahlstrom at the BC Provincials. As many may know, he has done a great deal of both qualitative and quantitative experimentation with the Berger 223/90 combo. He stands by his published assertions that the 6.5" twist is a superior long range configuration, but he also acknowledges that he has his critics. Unfortunately, a 6.5" twist is not standard for most barrel makers. (Sierra also suggests 6.5 with their bullets)

As to a 223 beating an F0 shooter, why is that funny;)? If the gun is accurate and the shooter knows what he is doing, there is no reason it cannot win. A gun that is capable of sub MOA can win any F-Class match. the 5 ring is 1MOA on the med. and LR targets.

"Gunsmoke" here shoots a 223 damned well with 80 grain bullets and he routinely out-shoots FO guys. Wapitiwhacker shoots a Remington FACTORY 223 and beats his fair share of F0 shooters! Our Beloved "CyaN1de" only lost his mojo when he started shooting something other than a 6BR. Beware of the man who has but one rifle.... :)
 
As to a 223 beating an F0 shooter, why is that funny? If the gun is accurate and the shooter knows what he is doing, there is no reason it cannot win. A gun that is capable of sub MOA can win any F-Class match. the 5 ring is 1MOA on the med. and LR targets.
Click to expand...

X2....I know the shooter very well and his gun and caliber is only part of his success.

He is a meticulous handloader, good wind reader and leaves nothing to chance.

Give him a gun in any caliber and he is a tough competitor.

In fact, he currently owns a .222 that shoots as well as his .223.

His old Hart barreled .308 shot as well as as any gun I've seen.
 
I am not surprised at all at the potency of the 223. I do shoot several remember.

It's just so much effort is put into studying and analysing ballistics. wondering, and calculating every possible variable.

But it still takes a good pilot to get the job done.

And a good pilot can do alot with a good rig.

As I said at the beginning, new bullets will drive the direction of LR shooting and the 223 is about to make some serious inroads into the F TR world.

With more wins, shooters will remove the blinders that have shrouded the 308 vs 223 debate for the last few years.

I expect to see alot of 223's in FTR in the coming seasons.

Not because it kicks less or costs less BUT because it is the better choice.

I will be one of them...

Jerry
 
I have watched Liberty shoot many times and he shoots his 223 rem with a 7.7 twist with 80gr Bergers with stunning accuracy and runs with most .308 win in F class but when his new 1/7 twist 30" arrives soon, mark my words, he will be in winners circle in F class FTR. I think he is entered in the 223 shoot at Connaught this coming weekend and I will put him the top 2 or 3 shooters and he could end up winning it.even with his little handycap shooting 80gr against the 90gr at 7,8 & 900 meters, he could be a lot of points ahead and Vs at 3,5 & 600y
I know people say yah everybody shoots 1/4" groups on posts on internet, but liberty does it and I watched him shoot a .520" group at 300y and many groups well under 1" at 300y
manitou
 
What target will we be shooting at the .223 shoot this weekend? ICFRA F-Class with half dimension V-Bull? In BC, we are shooting the ICFRA target with 0.4 MOA V-Bull or 32.5 mm size V-Bull at 300 yd and 35 mm size V-Bull at 300 m.
 
Last edited:
I went through 4 barrels in 22-250 AI shooting 80 Sierras, before I conceded that barrel life was only 1000 rounds. I could get 3400 fps, but bullets tended to blow.

So 3000+ with a 90 gr is there to be had, but I fear barrel life is still an issue.

Barrel life is cost and also the frustration of having to take a rifle out of service for awhile and then do some load development all over again.

But, the reason i kept doing it was that the caliiber was accurate. Custom reamer with deep throat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom