Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44

RE: Fact & Fiction - Waffenmeisters Impression

Fact: The Germans did mark Soviet arms with the Reich's eagle (to demonstrate German ownership). There are several documented and legit DP28's, SVT's etc, that once stamped on top of the reciever were given a German designation (sometimes also stamped on the piece of kit).

Fact: Some of the Reich's eagle stamps did have a Waffen meisters codes or Waffen Amt numbers beneath them. Various codes were used, not just WaA 63.

Fiction?: Multiple stampings. I have never come seen a documented case of multiple stamping (typical of what you would see on a K98). There would be no need of multiple stampings. K98's etc for example have various Waffen Amt approval stamps to show approval and a Reichs eagle to show Reich ownership. Captured weapons only required a Reichs eagle (ownership) a German waffenmeister would not need to approve (sign off) on Soviet made parts. However...several stranger and undocumented things have happened and mysteries are still being discovered.

Fact: Several countires did add dubious stampings to rifles post war to increase sales to North America.

You be the judge.
 
I always heed the addage 'buy the rifle not the story' but the story happens to come from John St Amours who is an active member here on the milsurps forum and visited the warehouse in person, signed for the security passes etc. This does not mean someone in yugoslavia did not fake a few of the mosins but why go thru the trouble and not charge more for them?
 
Claven2 said:
I don't know why I bother with these threads. You just can never convince some people the sky is blue.

FACT: After 1944, No german weaponry - even new manufacture - had tripple WaA marks on the receiver ring.

FACT: No documented capture has ever had three firing proofs on the receiver.

FACT: M44's saw so little use on the front line prior to hostilities that the chances the Germans captured any quantity is exceedingly small.

FACT: Nearly all the inspection emplyees of the WaffenAmpt (all military personnel) had been recalled to their units as the situation became even more desperate. In most cases, captured rifles received NO WaA inspection after mid-1944.

I don't know what more to say??? If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and the stamps aren't even authentic looking or in the right places - it's a fake. Period.

Go try to get your money back.
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I really don't think these types of omniscient statements of 'fact' are constructive simply because yesterday's fact can become todays myth in historical study...or vise versa.

Your points of the unlikely nature of the markings are well taken but to say anything for sure seems a little strong for such a soft science as history.
 
Again, if these things showed up here in 1989-90 there is no reason they could not have been purchased on the open market before the war & just grouped with the rest during the disarmament.
 
Any dealer worth his salt would be able to give a fair estimation of the authenticty of military markings. That a dealer with a good reputation to protect did not believe that these markings increased the rarity and value of the rifle should speak volumes in my opinion.
 
Fake!! Absolutely no question. I have an SWP45 that is ww2 production by the barrel code and serial number and it only has 3 WaA 63 stamps on the barrel and action and they completely skipped the eagle firing proofs. In 1945 the Germans were not stamping capture guns, they were hardly stamping their own production compared with the way they stamped them pre and early war.
 
Mike Webb said:
Fake!! Absolutely no question. I have an SWP45 that is ww2 production by the barrel code and serial number and it only has 3 WaA 63 stamps on the barrel and action and they completely skipped the eagle firing proofs. In 1945 the Germans were not stamping capture guns, they were hardly stamping their own production compared with the way they stamped them pre and early war.
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That is assuming that Germany worked like a perfect machine with no inconsistencies across the front or between fronts or on the homefront.
 
I didn't even read the thread, at the point I saw the pictures and wondered, "why is every part on that rifle stamped??"

lots of great input in this thread, and there is no true means to verify it.

To the question of "why fake a relatively low-value, unremarkable rifle..." well, why were No.4 Enfields being cut down and passed of as no.5 JC's? Because they could, I guess.

Personally, I remain skeptical.
 
buffdog said:
One thing we should all realize though, is that a lot of people are thinking in context of TODAY, and what would happen now in North America. We have to think about Who and What at the Time. We have a much more tolerant society in North America than in Europe, especially in the time frame involved. Life was strictly controlled and regimented before WW2 in Germany and other European Countries. Things were not questioned, there were Procedures, and everything was recorded, documented, and carried out, no matter how silly or absurd it was. The ordinary person did not question AUTHORITY.

If you told an average Canadian or American Infantryman to "take a Grenade and charge that Tank out there," you would probably have been told what part of his anatomy you could kiss, or an even more obscene suggestion. A German told that would have grabbed a Grenade and took off to try to accomplish what he had been told to do, no matter how absurd the chance of success.

Even so, human nature and self preservation is another factor. If you got sent to the Russian Front, your life expectancy is about two weeks. If you have a nice rear area job, such as Armourer, then you made yourself "essential" by doing your job and keeping a low profile. All these captured weapons, the "Book" says they have to be marked and identified, so it is your job to do it. It's right there, Chapter and Verse.

What it comes down to is "Mindset" of the time and period. These are the rules and regulations. They WILL be followed. Never mind the fact that there is a T-34 and a bunch of Ivans at the outskirts of town, YOU will do your job.
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This holds absolutely no weight to me to be honest. How do you know what "the average Canadian or American" would have done vs a German? What are you basing this on? I think this entire assumption is based on nothing to be honest. If I am wrong and there is more to this - please correct me, I am always eager to learn...seriously!

Lets look at facts. Facts of markings, facts of stamps,year, rifle features etc... Lets not fantasize about who would or wouldnt do their job at whatever time etc.. because these are simply opinions and cannot be proven or disproven.
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bearhunter said:
I will admit, there are obvious fakes out there but take a look at the OP pics. All of the wear and rust, are on the same level. As far as the hex receiver, the Soviets, were putting together anything they could get their hands on to go bang. That isn't, by far the first M44 or M38 I've seen with a hex receiver. They did what they had to do to arm their troops. The Germans did the same thing. Some got stamped, some didn't. That isn't unusual or a mystery.

In the US, right now, unless you have CMP or factory provenance, no one will accept a milsurp rifle of US manufacture as being real. All I can say, is give your head a shake. Unless there is some fairly substantial monetary gain or a huge ego to aswage, there isn't any reason to make these modifications to a milsurp.
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Actually M38s and M44s are unusual with a hex reciever. They are indeed older recievers that were rearsenaled onto new (at the time) barrels. This is a very standard practice however they are uncommon on carbines. They are indeed out there, but they are not the standard - thus uncommon.

In regards to wear and rust. The wear could have come from anything at any time. How can you say it isnt wear from Korea? Vietnam? Africa? or any other country that was given aid from the Soviets post war? Perhaps at some point in time it sat in somebodys damp house? Perhaps it was used as someones hunting rifle for years and was never cleaned?

Im just saying there is no way to say that that is "WWII wear". That could have come into play anywhere since '45.

In regards to the whole "if there isnt monetary gain then why would someone do it?" statement. Well, no one can say for sure why someone would or wouldnt do it if it is a fake. Ive personally seen a box of remington .38spl ammo with a nazi eagle ink stamp on it. When I asked the seller, he said "some kid probably had found some old stamp and had some fun". Makes sense (seeing as how the box of ammo was probably made within the last 5 yrs!) And as such the ammo was priced at the normal rate. Im not saying a kid sat there and stamped that rifle up, just that no one can really guess for sure why it would be faked.
 
I'm not saying it is WWII wear. I'm saying the patterns are all even. It takes a lot of carrying and dragging to wear a rifle like that. I don't know where or how it was done. The fact that an uncommon receiver was used would be even more reason for the rifle to bear acceptance or trial stamps. All IMHO of course.
 
I took the rifle apart and it is dated P3?

It is star marked which means a Tula receiver I believe.

Also the WaA241 while is is Oberndorf would have been stamped geographically anywhere the Waffenamt officer was posted (he takes his dies with him).

I just don't know if this is an authentic looking stamp even. Why is it an eagle over a swastika over a waffenamt.. usually its just a stick eagle over a waffenamt
 
skirsons said:
I really don't think these types of omniscient statements of 'fact' are constructive simply because yesterday's fact can become todays myth in historical study...or vise versa.

Your points of the unlikely nature of the markings are well taken but to say anything for sure seems a little strong for such a soft science as history.
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Let me put it to you this way, between this rifle and the Lee Enfield sold by the same person at the same time, there are ongoing discussions on maybe 3 boards - 2 that I know of for sure.

After more than a decade of collecting Enfields, K98k's and Even an extensive mosin collection, I can assure you I have seen a good number of real capture rifles and none of them looked anything like this one.

Now go read through the threads. You see a ton of relative newcommers ot the milsurp community commenting that it may or may not be real, but all of the well recognized experts like Peter Laidler (for example), the K9k forum moderators, every advisory panel member for the relevant collecting field at MSC, etc. all have opined these two rifles are obvious fakes of well known pattern.

Is it possible every one of the "experts" is wrong and the newcommers are right? Anything is possible, but the chances are exceedingly small. It could theoretically rain diamonds too, but it won't happen.
 
bas said:
Any dealer worth his salt would be able to give a fair estimation of the authenticty of military markings. That a dealer with a good reputation to protect did not believe that these markings increased the rarity and value of the rifle should speak volumes in my opinion.
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That' like saying a reputable car dealers doesn't ever sell lemons. After all, they have a reputation, right? :rolleyes:
 
skirsons said:
That is assuming that Germany worked like a perfect machine with no inconsistencies across the front or between fronts or on the homefront.
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Groan. Actually, yes, Germany DID act cohesively on arms production. Go see latewar.com or read backbone or any of the newer books on K98k production. Give or take a month, the changes to marking happened cross the board simultaneously by order of the Heereswaffenampt. The reason is simple - the inspectors got called back to their units to help repel the Soviets.
 
Claven2 said:
Let me put it to you this way, between this rifle and the Lee Enfield sold by the same person at the same time, there are ongoing discussions on maybe 3 boards - 2 that I know of for sure.

After more than a decade of collecting Enfields, K98k's and Even an extensive mosin collection, I can assure you I have seen a good number of real capture rifles and none of them looked anything like this one.

Now go read through the threads. You see a ton of relative newcommers ot the milsurp community commenting that it may or may not be real, but all of the well recognized experts like Peter Laidler (for example), the K9k forum moderators, every advisory panel member for the relevant collecting field at MSC, etc. all have opined these two rifles are obvious fakes of well known pattern.

Is it possible every one of the "experts" is wrong and the newcommers are right? Anything is possible, but the chances are exceedingly small. It could theoretically rain diamonds too, but it won't happen.
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Your point is valid, and I am NO expert on German/Russian firearms, but is there a pattern to the forgery? Surely, there can/could only be a few dirty bird dies floating around the world. Based on that presumption, the forgerer will have probably faked many different firearms, likely focusing on German and Russian firearms. Does this forgery match others in pattern and style? There can only be so many "professional" forgery patterns.

Another way to put it is that I am sure some 19 year old bubba from Tenessee probably didn't get access to a set of dies.

Another point I would like to make is that who, 30, 40, 50 years ago would have been able to predict that a rifle with dirty birds would be valuable today? I cannot imagine that there was much of a market for "authentic" Nazi rifles not long after the war ended! Of course, I could be wrong.
 
bearhunter said:
I'm not saying it is WWII wear. I'm saying the patterns are all even. It takes a lot of carrying and dragging to wear a rifle like that. I don't know where or how it was done. The fact that an uncommon receiver was used would be even more reason for the rifle to bear acceptance or trial stamps. All IMHO of course.
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If this came from Yugoslavia, it did so after 40 years of use in civil defense, at cadet schools and a decade long civil war that ran longer than WW2. Good enough for you?
 
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