Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44
- Thread starter skirsons
- Start date
Sarco still sells the dies and there are a number of fakers that have operated on e-bay until very recently. Still for sale all over the internet. I have literally seen complete crates of mosins form the same unscrupulous dealer (in the US this time) that had all been similarly faked. why? Well because getting $100 or $150 for a $50 gun 10 years ago before much of the internet study to "out" these sheisters was a tidy little business at gunshows.
Finally, everyone is taking John's word for it that these two rifles arrived direct from Yugo in 1990 and that he didn't stamp them. I like John just fine, but in the absence of proof to the contrary the evidence points to only two outcomes:
1) John or his staff (maybe even his European staff) faked them; or
2) They were faked before John got them and he didn't have sufficient knowledge of capture markings to detect their fake-ness.
I personally believe No.2 since I happen to know John personally and he's not a man out to "take" people. In my experience, dealers know a lot about the basic models of firearms but often don't have the time or interest to read the obsessive compulsive-type books that serious collectors of a given genre take the pains to read and research.
John is good people, but I'm not going to tell people that a fake is legit if I believe otherwise.
Forty4Forty
Regular
- Location
- Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Just for fun I will throw this in the lively debate, not bought as a special M44, marks just on the bolt. fake, not fake, who knows, maybe one day we may find an old German who may know something.
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Perhaps this reveals the possibility that the rifle in the OP was marked by the Germans and then improved upon post war with all the extra stamps.
The fact that the bolt is a mismatch could mean it came from a genuine German capture (not necessarily an M44), and during subsequent Yugo use/ refurbishment was changed into the current rifle. Then someone, noticing the bolt marks decided to retrofit a German capture by marking the rest of the rifle.
I also find it curious that they marked the 457r onto the rifle. Do any other captures, such as Browning High Powers have the designation marked directly onto the firearm?
The fact that the bolt is a mismatch could mean it came from a genuine German capture (not necessarily an M44), and during subsequent Yugo use/ refurbishment was changed into the current rifle. Then someone, noticing the bolt marks decided to retrofit a German capture by marking the rest of the rifle.
I also find it curious that they marked the 457r onto the rifle. Do any other captures, such as Browning High Powers have the designation marked directly onto the firearm?
For that rifle (the OP's) to be a German capture, it'd have to be on a very short timeline. It's dated 1945 - that would mean that it would need to be produced, shipped, issued (to a Russian unit that managed to loose weapons to the Germans in 1945 - not too many of those) get shipped back from the front, inspected, stamped and shipped to a German unit - not too likely in wartime 1945 Germany.
One point I must make: I don't know. And I suspect that most of us here don't know.
A good point made recently is that regarding generalists. I know a little bit about a helluvva lotta guns (usually just enough to shoot my mouth off and get people p*ssed at me) but, please believe me, I will be the LAST person to say that I am an 'expert' on any of them. Student? Yes. Aficionado? Yes. Reasonably adept? Yes. Expert? NO! For one thing, I'm only 65 years old and you would have to be 300 or so to be an expert on everything which might show up on a board such as this one.
What I posted a few pages back was intended to show some of the possibilities of the time. Donitz, for example, was the second Fuhrer and HE didn't know about it until he got the radio message. I rather doubt that Privat Fritz Kleinpfennig knew more than Donitz about what was going to happen with the war.
On the other hand, I have known, and sometimes worked closely with, men who were there. What does it take for a man to get FIVE tank-destroyer ribbons for his sleeve? Answer: two Panzerfaust 30ms, three mines, a Kar 98k and a LOT of guts. How does a POLE get to Monte Cassino? Answer: fights the Germans and is defeated, fights the Russians and is captured, escapes into Germany, gets captured, escapes again, gets into France, takes a boat to England and joins the Free Polish Army and goes to Cassino, just like the rest of the Polish Artillery Brigade. What does it take to escape from a German Stalag? Answer: a LOT. I knew a guy who did it 5 times, wrote a book about it.
Everybody up at the Sharp End got a chance to be a bona-fide Hero. There was certainly a LOT of it going around, and on all sides, too. I once worked in a place where everybody was still fighting WW2.... but the only three men who actually saw ACTIVE service ate lunch together, every day: the Irish sailor, the Polish janitor and the German chef. Respectively, they were Merchant Marine, Free Polish Army, and Waffen-SS. THEY got along because they RESPECTED each other. Everybody else was busy hating everybody else.
But a lot of guys didn't have that. They played it 'by the Book' and kept their heads low until it was all over. There are no Heroes in the QMC... but the life expectancy is a lot longer.
I have no idea who put these stamps onto this rifle. All I do know is that I am 65 years old and the War ended before my first birthday. That is a LOT of time for a rifle to accumulate a few stamps, should said stamps be available. And it came from Yugoslavia? Lotsa stamps there, one would think.
But I don't KNOW, so I sit here and read what fellows like Claven2 have to say, fellows who have had regular access to better stuff than I have been able to pick up due to finance and proximity (I have lived mostly in small places).
One thing about this board is that there certainly is room for enough debate. And from this debate eventually will come knowledge. And that is always a good thing.
Still think I'd like to own a rifle like that!
A good point made recently is that regarding generalists. I know a little bit about a helluvva lotta guns (usually just enough to shoot my mouth off and get people p*ssed at me) but, please believe me, I will be the LAST person to say that I am an 'expert' on any of them. Student? Yes. Aficionado? Yes. Reasonably adept? Yes. Expert? NO! For one thing, I'm only 65 years old and you would have to be 300 or so to be an expert on everything which might show up on a board such as this one.
What I posted a few pages back was intended to show some of the possibilities of the time. Donitz, for example, was the second Fuhrer and HE didn't know about it until he got the radio message. I rather doubt that Privat Fritz Kleinpfennig knew more than Donitz about what was going to happen with the war.
On the other hand, I have known, and sometimes worked closely with, men who were there. What does it take for a man to get FIVE tank-destroyer ribbons for his sleeve? Answer: two Panzerfaust 30ms, three mines, a Kar 98k and a LOT of guts. How does a POLE get to Monte Cassino? Answer: fights the Germans and is defeated, fights the Russians and is captured, escapes into Germany, gets captured, escapes again, gets into France, takes a boat to England and joins the Free Polish Army and goes to Cassino, just like the rest of the Polish Artillery Brigade. What does it take to escape from a German Stalag? Answer: a LOT. I knew a guy who did it 5 times, wrote a book about it.
Everybody up at the Sharp End got a chance to be a bona-fide Hero. There was certainly a LOT of it going around, and on all sides, too. I once worked in a place where everybody was still fighting WW2.... but the only three men who actually saw ACTIVE service ate lunch together, every day: the Irish sailor, the Polish janitor and the German chef. Respectively, they were Merchant Marine, Free Polish Army, and Waffen-SS. THEY got along because they RESPECTED each other. Everybody else was busy hating everybody else.
But a lot of guys didn't have that. They played it 'by the Book' and kept their heads low until it was all over. There are no Heroes in the QMC... but the life expectancy is a lot longer.
I have no idea who put these stamps onto this rifle. All I do know is that I am 65 years old and the War ended before my first birthday. That is a LOT of time for a rifle to accumulate a few stamps, should said stamps be available. And it came from Yugoslavia? Lotsa stamps there, one would think.
But I don't KNOW, so I sit here and read what fellows like Claven2 have to say, fellows who have had regular access to better stuff than I have been able to pick up due to finance and proximity (I have lived mostly in small places).
One thing about this board is that there certainly is room for enough debate. And from this debate eventually will come knowledge. And that is always a good thing.
Still think I'd like to own a rifle like that!
To make a $500 rifle - that's what this rifle sold for.
What? I must have missed that part. No Mosin is worth 500 bucks. I dont care if Hitler slept with it under his pillow.
This may be a possibility too. I am intrigued by the 457r designation too. No-one has explained it away either. After all its easy to put a few stamps with some waffenamts on a rifle but who would but the 457r on there or bother to do that if faking it?
Oh and the waffenamt with the eagle over swastika over waffenamt is a real style of waffen. I researched this yesterday.
- Location
- Steel Town and The Peg
Smellie; this is off topic, but can you confirm this to be true? My grandfather was part of the "Free Polish" Army that took Monte Cassino. He lived to "tell" about it. Problem is, he kept most of the horror to himself and would only share bits and pieces. I guess it was too painful for him to explain it all to me. Thanks for sharing.
I just noticed after removing all of the cosmoline that the rear action screw is not a Mosin Nagant screw but a Mauser K98 action screw with the machining for locking screws. Perhaps part of the repair the waffenamt markings indicate, perhaps a screw thrown in there by the alleged faker just for expediency.
I am enjoying the discussion but I am not convinced one way or another completely yet.
Pro real and Con real
Pros:
- The rifle is an uncommon rifle to begin with
- If fake it was faked at a time when it was not likely to have brought any financial gain
- It is marked with 457r which is not a common mark for any faker to apply in my knowledge
- It has the small waffen indescretely marked on the wrist - perhaps the markings were just embellished by a fraudster
- WaA241 is not a marking I've seen on other fakes so far
- Mauser 98 screw, new bolt, may indicate waffenamt repair
- The waffens are quite plentiful which is a sign of a bad fake but when combined with the knowledge it would take to mark it 457r you'd think they would do a more expert fake
- The rifle came with its original packing grease still intact
Cons:
- The rifle was captured at a time when it was not likely for it to be capture marked
- The proliferation of waffens is not common on authentic capture rifles which have less markings
- Fakes are common on complete mismatch rifles which this one is
- There are lots of double strikings and over-strikings
Pro real and Con real
Pros:
- The rifle is an uncommon rifle to begin with
- If fake it was faked at a time when it was not likely to have brought any financial gain
- It is marked with 457r which is not a common mark for any faker to apply in my knowledge
- It has the small waffen indescretely marked on the wrist - perhaps the markings were just embellished by a fraudster
- WaA241 is not a marking I've seen on other fakes so far
- Mauser 98 screw, new bolt, may indicate waffenamt repair
- The waffens are quite plentiful which is a sign of a bad fake but when combined with the knowledge it would take to mark it 457r you'd think they would do a more expert fake
- The rifle came with its original packing grease still intact
Cons:
- The rifle was captured at a time when it was not likely for it to be capture marked
- The proliferation of waffens is not common on authentic capture rifles which have less markings
- Fakes are common on complete mismatch rifles which this one is
- There are lots of double strikings and over-strikings
Would definitely be interested in pics of that screw...
Even during the war there was a huge market for souvenirs and trinkets. Every GI ( or tommy, etc) was keeping his eyes open for lugers, belt buckles, helmets, hitler youth knives, and the like.
As soon as the war ended, it became quite the business for the now-poor locals to sell these goods to the soldiers stationed in their area - and there were hundreds of thousands just between '45 and the cold war.
Even during the war there was a huge market for souvenirs and trinkets. Every GI ( or tommy, etc) was keeping his eyes open for lugers, belt buckles, helmets, hitler youth knives, and the like.
As soon as the war ended, it became quite the business for the now-poor locals to sell these goods to the soldiers stationed in their area - and there were hundreds of thousands just between '45 and the cold war.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Just for fun I will throw this in the lively debate, not bought as a special M44, marks just on the bolt. fake, not fake, who knows, maybe one day we may find an old German who may know something.
Regarding Skirsons Rifle and your Bolt:
Looks like a Faker trying his dies on an inexpensive rifle before he moves up the food chain and starts humping and devaluing the good stuff.
Post it on Gunboards. You'll find your answer right away.
Now the Bad News. Fake Markings devalue your rifle to Half or Less as compared to one that wasn't Dicked with. Sorry for the Bad News.
Example: So a $99 Nagant is now worth $40.
It's no different if you took a set of Dies to a P08, and stamped into it "Adolf Hitlers Luger" and tried to sell it. Good Luck finding a Buyer.
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Trust me when I say I will never be buying any FARB dies. And these types of dies have repeatedly and continuously been available for more than a decade - that is undeniable.
Anyhow, I've said all I'm going to. If the OP wants to believe he's got a nice and rare capture than good for him.
Umm... one last point. Original to what? The rifle could have had cosmolene applied any time between 1945 and 2 weeks ago. You also don't need to remove cosmo to stamp a rifle and then re-smear some over the marked areas.
