Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44

I was told the same thing, that the cyrillic letters in front of the serial number were assigned randomly to hide the real production total.

There must be some method to the madness if, for example, a weapon was returned to the factory for re-inspection and the records for that block of rifles had to be pulled out and examined.
 
Sorry guys, my math was off!

There are 33 letters in the Russian alphabet, so if the numbers are sequential, the total would be:

14*33=462*9999=4619538+2*9999+5149=4644685 which would put production at the end of 1945 - IF the numbers were sequential, which would make the rifle post-war.

That being said, I am aware of the data on the two noted websites and that they believe the numbers to be random. Personally I think they are sequential based on the mosin collecting I have done, but that's a whole different topic for discussion. My belief is that most people simply don;t understand the cyrillic alphabet and its order. If you know it, then the serials out there don;t seem to conflict with known production data... but I digress.

For the purposes of this discussion, perhaps best to just leave serial numbers out of it then.
 
The rifles were in the original Russian wooden cases as left by them in 1947.
This means the rifle was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1945, captured by the Germans, marked by them, then recovered by the Soviets, and crated up by them for long term storage prior to '47.
It would be fascinating to know the travels of this rifle in this short period of time - where it was captured by the Germans, where it was recovered by the Soviets, and how it found its way to Yugoslavia. It had a very busy time, and then lay undiscovered until 1990.
The reference to the German marked '46 dated rifle is interesting. Wonder what its story is?
 
skirsons said:
It is a Tula receiver.
Click to expand...

I once had a Tula M91 with a Chatellerault receiver.

In the Soviet ordnance system the manufacturer of a rifle is the maker of the barrel. This is also true of most scandinavian and eastern european countries where the barrel is sometimes the part that gets registered in their versions of gun control.

In any event, the serialized part with the maker's stamp is the accepted norm for identifying a mosin as Tula, Izhevsk, etc.

I've noticed a few inconsistencies in the ad copy for the rifles now being sold now that I've seen it, but as they say in Latin, "Erro Humano Est" (to err is to be human).
 
The REAL capture eagle is on the Mosin 91 Capture post! It is a Capture code like you never seen!
I am looking into the history of this rifle berfore I got it. And will post a couple more pics. The only eagles/code are at the wrist.
About 5 years ago I read that Kharkov, Polish/Russian border was a Mosin factory. It was over ran by the German army in summer 41 and by 1942 it rebuilt captured Russian arms for about 2 years maximum.
 
In case John is watching, some things to note to better advertise his rather nice rifles:

- J2025 is not a 1907-15 Berthier, it's a Pattern 1938 Turkish Forrestry Carbine.
- J2270 is not an M1C, it's an M1D. It is also not an original USGI sniper rifle under the widely accepted definition as all M1D's in the US forces left the factory on specially selected Springfield Armory receivers. It could be a field conversion or possibly a Danish conversion.
- J2183 and J2182 are M91/30's, not M91's.
- A VERY small point, but most of the No.1MkIII rifles listed are No.1MkIII* rifles.

And by the way, John just GAVE away those non-refurb SVT40's. Had I seen them earlier before they sold, I would have been happy to a couple hundred more for either of them.

Please note this list is intended to be constructive and helpful and I hope it is received that way.
 
6167 said:
The funny thing is when the first group of these came in to the country in 1989/90 there were some that also had SS Runes on one side of the receiver as well...including one my buddy kept that was dated 1946....
Please be aware that all of these came from Yugoslavia at the time that big slew of Brens came over with the really nice Yugo AK's....I know that those boys had access to a whole whack of German Depot equipment including what I suspect was Armourer tools that would allow any competent guy with time on his hands, the ability to do just about anything...Just my humble opinion. Cheers Paul
Click to expand...

I like this theory. It holds more water than actual german capturing in 1945, because german capturing basically started ending after stalingrad in 42 as the german army was in retreat for the most part after that, and by 45?? do the math, Jan 1945 what was the state of the german forces on the eastern front then??
 
skirsons said:
It is a Tula receiver.
Click to expand...

"Tula only made M44s in 1944 and these should be considered uncommon and purchased when found at the price of a typical Izhevsk M44."

According to 7.62X54r.net, Tula only made M44's in 1944. If one had handled a trillion Mosin Nagants, how could one possibly confuse a Tula star with an Izhevsk triangle? How could one possibly claim that a 1945, Izhevsk marked, serialed and dated Mosin Nagant M44 was made at Tula Arsenal?

That rifle was made at Izhevsk, recycled receiver or not.
 
canuck98k said:
"Tula only made M44s in 1944 and these should be considered uncommon and purchased when found at the price of a typical Izhevsk M44."

According to 7.62X54r.net, Tula only made M44's in 1944. If one had handled a trillion Mosin Nagants, how could one possibly confuse a Tula star with an Izhevsk triangle? How could one possibly claim that a 1945, Izhevsk marked, serialed and dated Mosin Nagant M44 was made at Tula Arsenal?

That rifle was made at Izhevsk, recycled receiver or not.
Click to expand...


Not to slpit hairs, but in 1945, the Izhevsk marking was a hammer & Scickle in a wreath. The triangle was adopted post-45. And prior to 1930 or so, it was a bow and arrow.
 
CLAVEN 2;
bad descriptions, I apologize....

"And by the way, John just GAVE away those non-refurb SVT40's. Had I seen them earlier before they sold, I would have been happy to a couple hundred more for either of them."
Once again I apologize, I promise to charge much more for my personal guns, if the buyer does not agree and is will only to pay less I will look to you for the difference, OK ?


As for the Garands, it seems my information is wrong, again, I foolishly gathered my information from the US War Department Technical Manual TM9-1275 (1947), whereas I should have refered to your expertise....

BTW you have not replied to my challenge, are we on ??


John
 
Claven2 said:
Not to slpit hairs, but in 1945, the Izhevsk marking was a hammer & Scickle in a wreath. The triangle was adopted post-45. And prior to 1930 or so, it was a bow and arrow.
Click to expand...

Pre 1928 Izhevsk was a bow and arrow. Post 1928 Izhevsk was a triangle with an arrow inside.

The Hammer, sickle and wreath is the Soviet crest.
 
canuck98k said:
"Tula only made M44s in 1944 and these should be considered uncommon and purchased when found at the price of a typical Izhevsk M44."

According to 7.62X54r.net, Tula only made M44's in 1944. If one had handled a trillion Mosin Nagants, how could one possibly confuse a Tula star with an Izhevsk triangle? How could one possibly claim that a 1945, Izhevsk marked, serialed and dated Mosin Nagant M44 was made at Tula Arsenal?

That rifle was made at Izhevsk, recycled receiver or not.
Click to expand...

Recycled receiver
 
johnone said:
CLAVEN 2;
bad descriptions, I apologize....

"And by the way, John just GAVE away those non-refurb SVT40's. Had I seen them earlier before they sold, I would have been happy to a couple hundred more for either of them."
Once again I apologize, I promise to charge much more for my personal guns, if the buyer does not agree and is will only to pay less I will look to you for the difference, OK ?


As for the Garands, it seems my information is wrong, again, I foolishly gathered my information from the US War Department Technical Manual TM9-1275 (1947), whereas I should have refered to your expertise....

BTW you have not replied to my challenge, are we on ??


John
Click to expand...


Hi John,

I'm not providing input to this thread so I can challenge people to lose money on bets. If you say you can prove the rifle was part of that import, I am prepared to believe you. when I made the comments I made, nobody had heard anyhting from you other than third-hand. And if you read my posts (not the truncated version you put in quotation marks) you will note I clearly stated I did not think Marstar had altered the rifle.

I sincerely mean it when I say I am not debating this rifle's authenticity as a personal attack on you or Marstar. I simply believe the rifle to not be a real capture. Whether the person who is affected by this belief of mine is you or the rifle's next owner is immaterial to whether the rifle was actually captured by the Nazis or not.

Now as to the tech manual you cite, you may wish to note the differences in the mount between an M1C and an M1D. Will you agree the best recognized expert on these rifles is probably Scott Duff who actually wrote the best reference material on Garands?

If you do, please read this quote from his website:


The M1D Sniper Rifle
by Scott A. Duff



Two telescope-mounted versions of the M1 rifle were developed at Springfield Armory for use by snipers. They were designated the M1C and M1D.

The M1D was adopted as substitute standard in September 1944. The M1D utilized a machined base fitted around the chamber end of the barrel and secured with a pin to attach the telescope mount. There is no evidence that M1Ds were produced for distribution during World War II. Further, other than a few rifles used during development, it is believed that all M1Ds were created by rebuilding existing service rifles beginning in the early 1950s and continuing through at least the late 1960s.

The M1D design was invented and patented by John C. Garand and was intended to allow conversion from service rifle to sniper rifle at the support maintenance level. Most M1D rifles were equipped with the M84 telescope and 7/8" diameter mount. However, examples rebuilt in the 1960s have been observed with the Weaver K4 telescope and 1" diameter mount. M1D rifles equipped with the K4 scope were issued to National Guard units in the 1960s for riot suppression during anti-Vietnam War and civil rights disturbances.

As all M1D rifles were rebuilt rifles, the receiver may be of any manufacture and of any serial number produced prior to the date of the rebuild. The same applies to the individual components, any part made prior to the date of the rebuild is correct. All M1D barrels were made by Springfield Armory. The earliest observed M1D barrel is dated 5-51. M1D barrels have been counterfeited and merit carefully examination. Nearly all M1D barrels were stamped with drawing number D7312555. M1D barrels manufactured through the fall of 1952 had the drawing number stamped on the top, underneath the rear hand guard. M1D barrels manufactured after the fall of 1952 had the drawing number stamped on the right side, adjacent to the date.

The total number of service grade rifles converted by the military to M1D configuration is unknown. However, it is certain that well over 10,000 were converted. No less than 5,000 M1Ds were sold or given to foreign nations. In 1993 and 1994 over 6,000 M1D rifles were deemed obsolete and destroyed under orders from the Secretary of the Army. Beginning in 1995, M1D rifles were sold by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM), the forerunner to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) to qualified individuals. The total number sold to date is unknown, but it is the author's opinion that the quantity is between 3,000 and 4,000.

Many M1D rifles have been assembled by individuals from loose Government surplus barrels. They are generally deemed to be of less value than military-built M1Ds. Collectors consider proper CMP or DCM release papers to be one of the few ways to verify an M1D. CMP/DCM sales M1Ds are considered to be of the highest monetary value. Two other types of military-produced M1Ds exist, but are less common. In the early 1990s, a very small quantity was released through the U. S. Army Center for Military History (CMH) Title X trade program. Also a small quantity of M1Ds was imported from Israel in the late 1980s. Legitimate M1D rifles are historically significant and are highly sought after by collectors.

Additional information on this most interesting M1 rifle variant is contained in The M1 Garand: World War II by Scott A. Duff. An autographed copy of this book may be purchased through this website’s Scott Duff Publication Books section.
Click to expand...

And now on the M1C rifle:

The M1C Sniper Rifle
by Scott A. Duff



Two telescope-mounted versions of the M1 rifle were developed at Springfield Armory for use by snipers. They were designated the M1C and M1D.

The M1C was adopted as standard on 27 July 1944. A Lyman produced M81 or M82 telescope was mounted with a two-piece system consisting of a mount bracket and Griffin & Howe telescope mount. The mount bracket was aligned to the left side of the receiver by two taper pins and attached with three socket head cap screws. Therefore, all M1C rifles had five holes in the left side of the receiver, three were tapped, and two were not. The mount, with attached rings to secure the scope, locked onto the bracket utilizing two clamp-locking screws. Receivers, which had yet to be heat-treated, were sent to the Griffin & Howe Company in New York for installation of the bracket. The receiver/bracket assembly was then returned to the Armory for heat treatment and assembly of the rifle. This procedure precluded production of M1Cs anywhere other than at Springfield Armory.

The M1C was produced in limited quantities during World War II with, according to Ordnance Department records, only 7,971 completed rifles delivered by wars end. In addition, numerous receivers were in various states of completion when production ceased in August 1945. It is believed that they remained unfinished until the outbreak of war in Korea. The start of the Korean War resulted in Springfield Armory rebuilding 4,796 M1Cs between July 1951 and June 1953.

An original World War II M1C would consist of a 1944 or 1945 barrel and all other period SA components. Those rebuilt during the Korean War may have World War II era SA or WRA (only a few observed) barrels or early 1950s dated SA barrels. However, a few M1Cs have been observed with LMR or HRA barrels. A mixture of other parts are expected.

All legitimate Springfield Armory produced M1Cs are of SA manufacture with serial numbers in very specific blocks in the 3 million serial number range. Some of these serial number ranges are quite small; others are fairly large.

The small production quantity of M1Cs has caused it to be highly sought after by collectors. As a result, M1Cs are relatively expensive. Unfortunately, this has resulted in counterfeiting by unscrupulous individuals. Through the use of a large database of verified M1C serial numbers, legitimate M1Cs can be identified with over 95% certainty. This service is offered free of charge to members of the Garand Collectors Association (GCA). Before purchasing an M1C, the serial number should be checked out through the GCA. This service alone is worth the price of membership. An application for GCA membership may be found by visiting www.TheGCA.org and downloading the membership application.

Additional information on this most interesting M1 rifle variant is contained in The M1 Garand: World War II by Scott A. Duff. An autographed copy of this book may be purchased through this website’s Scott Duff Publication Books section.
Click to expand...

As you can see, all M1C rifles were SA manufacture but had a side mount pinned and screwed to the side of the receiver, while M1D's can be of any manufacture but have a barrel mount.

Your rifle is a winchester with a barrel mount, therefore cannot be an M1C.

I was wrong though that M1D's should not be on Winchester receivers, though other less reliable sources do claim this. Scott is THE source in my view and I am more than willing to admit I was wrong on this one aspect, but the rifle's description still needs to be revised in my opinion.

Cheers.
 
tiriaq said:
The rifles were in the original Russian wooden cases as left by them in 1947.
This means the rifle was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1945, captured by the Germans, marked by them, then recovered by the Soviets, and crated up by them for long term storage prior to '47.
It would be fascinating to know the travels of this rifle in this short period of time - where it was captured by the Germans, where it was recovered by the Soviets, and how it found its way to Yugoslavia. It had a very busy time, and then lay undiscovered until 1990.
The reference to the German marked '46 dated rifle is interesting. Wonder what its story is?
Click to expand...

The Germans were experimenting with a flux capacitor, ufo's, little green men, disco, time travel, and hence the time machine.
The Delorean from "Back to the Future" with Michael J driving it was used to transport the Nazi Marked 1946 made rifle from the future to the past (1945) and then to present time at Area 51.
The End.
 
Coyote Ugly said:
The Germans were experimenting with a flux capacitor, ufo's, little green men, disco, time travel, and hence the time machine.
The Delorean from "Back to the Future" with Michael J driving it was used to transport the Nazi Marked 1946 made rifle from the future to the past (1945) and then to present time at Area 51.
The End.
Click to expand...

It's interesting you say that, because I know a guy
who's friend saw a Nazi marked Delorean. It was in with a whole bunch of other Delorean's.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom