1911 metal - am I making a big deal out of nothing?

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subneural

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I'm looking to buy my first pistol. Thanks to friends and fellow club members, I've had a chance to test drive quite a few different calibers and makers, and I'm pretty much set on a 1911 in .45 ACP, most likely a Kimber. The main use will be target shooting.

How big a deal is the metal used for the frame & slide on 1911s? I've heard some first-hand stories of frames cracking after a few years of use (S&W and Colt in particular). Whenever making a substantial buy (and I consider any firearm purchase an investment) I don't mind spending as long as its for quality equipment. I immediately looked at the stainless-steel Kimbers, but find that they are a bit more expensive than the blued steel ones. I also notice that Kimber makes quite a few models with aluminum frames, but whenever I think of aluminum, I think of a soft metal, and think that it wont stand up to the test of time.

So in the end, as long as it's proprly maintained, is there any reason a steel frame/steel slide, basic Kimber Custom II should not last my lifetime?

Thanks.
 
first, production guns are NOT an "investment". an investment is something that you rightfully expect to appreciate in value and you buy it MAINLY (if not only) for the purpose of reselling it in the future at a higher price. and just because the prices on EE for used guns are the same as new guns doesn't mean that guns are an investment.

as for metals, there's various kinds of aluminum just like there's various kinds of steel, and aluminum is used in airplanes, engines, machinery, etc. steel usually rusts, aluminum is usually more porous and softer and prefers to crack rather than stretch. usually. aluminum is inherently a soft metal, and iron (the main part of steel) is inherently hard - relatively speaking. and STEEL is an ALLOY, and an ALLOY does not automatically mean aluminum (since 'aluminum' is actually an element and inherently NOT an alloy - but that's just me pointing out how amazingly STUPID a lot of people are, especially the firearms manufacturers)

everything lasts for a lifetime. its [own] lifetime. and its lifetime ends when it breaks.
 
BP7 said:
first, production guns are NOT an "investment". an investment is something that you rightfully expect to appreciate in value and you buy it MAINLY (if not only) for the purpose of reselling it in the future at a higher price. and just because the prices on EE for used guns are the same as new guns doesn't mean that guns are an investment.
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:jerkit:
 
subneural said:
I'm looking to buy my first pistol. Thanks to friends and fellow club members, I've had a chance to test drive quite a few different calibers and makers, and I'm pretty much set on a 1911 in .45 ACP, most likely a Kimber. The main use will be target shooting.

How big a deal is the metal used for the frame & slide on 1911s? I've heard some first-hand stories of frames cracking after a few years of use (S&W and Colt in particular). Whenever making a substantial buy (and I consider any firearm purchase an investment) I don't mind spending as long as its for quality equipment. I immediately looked at the stainless-steel Kimbers, but find that they are a bit more expensive than the blued steel ones. I also notice that Kimber makes quite a few models with aluminum frames, but whenever I think of aluminum, I think of a soft metal, and think that it wont stand up to the test of time.

So in the end, as long as it's proprly maintained, is there any reason a steel frame/steel slide, basic Kimber Custom II should not last my lifetime?

Thanks.
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I would be less worried about the metal on the frame and slide and more worried about kimber's habit of using MIM small parts and not fitting their guns together as well as they should.

But as far as the steel frame and slide go, no, they'll probably outlast you unless you begin to shoot competitively. But if you are like the average gun owner and run a couple hundred rounds a year through any given gun (then tell everyone it's several thousand) then no, it'll last forever.

I would put frame life somewhere around maybe 75,000 rounds? You'll spend the cost of the gun in small parts several times over before you ever get there. And orders of magnitude more on ammo.
 
+1 on worrying about small parts and assembly quality. Durability of any frames/slides/barrels from the major 1911 makers is a non-issue. There is no practical difference between carbon or stainless steel in this regard. I wouldn't bother with an aluminum framed gun unless you have the opportunity to carry it on a regular basis.

If you can afford to shoot enough to wear out the major components, you can easily afford to buy a replacement gun from time to time.

I think that my first choice for a mass-produced mid-range 1911 would be a Colt with Springfield Armory as a second choice. For a little more, the Dan Wesson RZ-45 Heritage also looks nice. Dlask lists their entry level gun at $1250, which is pretty reasonable if you want to go the custom route.
 
tjhaile said:
+1 on worrying about small parts and assembly quality. Durability of any frames/slides/barrels from the major 1911 makers is a non-issue. There is no practical difference between carbon or stainless steel in this regard. I wouldn't bother with an aluminum framed gun unless you have the opportunity to carry it on a regular basis.

If you can afford to shoot enough to wear out the major components, you can easily afford to buy a replacement gun from time to time.

I think that my first choice for a mass-produced mid-range 1911 would be a Colt with Springfield Armory as a second choice. For a little more, the Dan Wesson RZ-45 Heritage also looks nice. Dlask lists their entry level gun at $1250, which is pretty reasonable if you want to go the custom route.
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Good to know about the small parts. Any forum sponsors sell Dan Wesson?
 
subneural said:
I'm looking to buy my first pistol. Thanks to friends and fellow club members, I've had a chance to test drive quite a few different calibers and makers, and I'm pretty much set on a 1911 in .45 ACP, most likely a Kimber. The main use will be target shooting.

How big a deal is the metal used for the frame & slide on 1911s?
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BP7 is right on his comments about metals. Aluminum is an element and not used for much unless it's alloyed in many different ways. Then it can be used for many applications (e.g aluminum/vanadium/titanium alloys in aircraft and they last pretty well for the most part considering the s**t-kicking they get when being flown around the world!).

Strength also means different things (resists impact, resists bending, resists repeated flexing, resists impact, resists compression, etc, etc). No metal can do everything well, so for a firearm, makers figure out the needs and make their choice of materials.

IMHO certain grades of steel are still the best material for most firearms, but that's a generalization (see comments above as to why!!).

If I were you, read the thread in this Forum by "incorrigible" on the steel used in the Norinco 1911 (yes that's N-O-R-I-N-C-O, not a misprint!). It's probably the best steel for a pistol, and the Norinco 1911 was/is used by several well-known gunsmiths as the basis for custom .45's.

IMHO, save your money and buy a Norinco 1911 and have it gone over by Armco. You'll have money left over for ammo for years to come and you'll smile all the way to the bank.
 
Arms East and Kodiak Outpost both carry Dan Wesson.

I also concur that the Norincos are an excellent starting point for a project gun.
 
First you need to decide what you mean by "target shooting". Is this putting a few rounds down range and any sort of target available? or "real" target shooting aka "competition" - they are very different things and if the latter, then the 45 is NOT the place to start. Learning to shoot is a multi-year and usually a lifetime pursuit.

Dr J
 
BP7 said:
first, production guns are NOT an "investment". an investment is something that you rightfully expect to appreciate in value and you buy it MAINLY (if not only) for the purpose of reselling it in the future at a higher price. and just because the prices on EE for used guns are the same as new guns doesn't mean that guns are an investment....
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Who said a financial investment? I invest in myself through education. I invest in my family by spending time having fun with them. I invest in my happiness by target shooting :)
 
well, you wrote it as "...firearm purchase an investment", so i deduced that the firearm (item) itself was the investment, in and of itself.

happiness is good to have too!
 
The norinco 1911's offer good value for the money. However, there are plenty of nicer and higher quality 1911's out there. It seems some people have read the thread about norinco steel and now you think they're the greatest guns in the world made out of adamantium. The reality is that if you have the money to spend, you can buy a much better 1911.

I have no problem with people suggesting people buy a norinco 1911 if they want a decent entry-level 1911. However, if somebody has the money to spend, suggesting they are better choice than a Dan Wesson or S&W (or similar) is plain crazy (or misinformed).
 
Kodiak Outpost said:
The norinco 1911's offer good value for the money. However, there are plenty of nicer and higher quality 1911's out there. It seems some people have read the thread about norinco steel and now you think they're the greatest guns in the world made out of adamantium. The reality is that if you have the money to spend, you can buy a much better 1911.

I have no problem with people suggesting people buy a norinco 1911 if they want a decent entry-level 1911. However, if somebody has the money to spend, suggesting they are better choice than a Dan Wesson or S&W (or similar) is plain crazy (or misinformed).
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^^ What he said
 
Kodiak Outpost said:
The norinco 1911's offer good value for the money. However, there are plenty of nicer and higher quality 1911's out there. It seems some people have read the thread about norinco steel and now you think they're the greatest guns in the world made out of adamantium. The reality is that if you have the money to spend, you can buy a much better 1911.

I have no problem with people suggesting people buy a norinco 1911 if they want a decent entry-level 1911. However, if somebody has the money to spend, suggesting they are better choice than a Dan Wesson or S&W (or similar) is plain crazy (or misinformed).
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This is a good point and one that seems to need restating in light of some of the recent (well intentioned) overly enthusiastic comments made about the Norinco Super Guns recently. Many well meaning comments have been coming from people that are not necessarily experienced shooters, that do not have any hands on experience with the Norinco 1911s... But it is easy to get excited when you read a post about one engineer's opinion about the quality of the steel used to make Norinco frames.

As posted in other threads, if you actually sat down with a Norinco 1911 in hand and evaluated next to a more expensive North American manufactured 1911, you would find that the Norinco would be "worth" (after all, worth is relative) way more than the $349 that the new Norincos are selling for here in Canada. If you were to shoot one head to head with a more expensive NA manufactured 1911, you would still find that the Norinco shoots and feels better than its $349 price should allow it to.

But to be clear, a $350 Norinco is NOT the total equal of an $800 - $1200 North American manufactured gun... but it is pretty close to being 70% - 80% of the gun for less than a third of the price; maybe even closer to 90% if you don't take finish into account. That does make it an amazing bargain for its selling price.

Is it a great 1911 for the price? Absolutely, no question that it is a great 1911 for the price. But it does not, however, make it a great 1911. A Norinco still needs a bit of work to make it a "great" 1911.

When people like Bill Wilson speak well of the Norinco frames, remember the context of those comments. These guys are more than happy to take a Norinco frame & slide and then begin to BUILD a great 1911 on that platform. That build would include a lot of work to the frame and slide as well to bring it up to the standard of their usual work. Their excitement is over the fact that they can get (well not any more in the US) a raw build frame (in a Norinco) for less than the price of just a slide from a company such as Caspian. There would be noting recognizably "Norinco" about that gun once Bill Wilson was finished his build.

Sorry for the long winded speech... :D I guess I just want to make sure that new shooters aren't misinterpreting what is being said about Norinco STEEL and thinking that it means that Norinco guns are superior to the models that they were cloned from... Again, great guns for the price no doubt; but not necessarily better guns than the NA made guns that they are copies of. :)
 
krausb said:
This is a good point and one that seems to need restating in light of some of the recent (well intentioned) overly enthusiastic comments made about the Norinco Super Guns recently. Many well meaning comments have been coming from people that are not necessarily experienced shooters, that do not have any hands on experience with the Norinco 1911s... But it is easy to get excited when you read a post about one engineer's opinion about the quality of the steel used to make Norinco frames.

As posted in other threads, if you actually sat down with a Norinco 1911 in hand and evaluated next to a more expensive North American manufactured 1911, you would find that the Norinco would be "worth" (after all, worth is relative) way more than the $349 that the new Norincos are selling for here in Canada. If you were to shoot one head to head with a more expensive NA manufactured 1911, you would still find that the Norinco shoots and feels better than its $349 price should allow it to.

But to be clear, a $350 Norinco is NOT the total equal of an $800 - $1200 North American manufactured gun... but it is pretty close to being 70% - 80% of the gun for less than a third of the price; maybe even closer to 90% if you don't take finish into account. That does make it an amazing bargain for its selling price.

Is it a great 1911 for the price? Absolutely, no question that it is a great 1911 for the price. But it does not, however, make it a great 1911. A Norinco still needs a bit of work to make it a "great" 1911.

When people like Bill Wilson speak well of the Norinco frames, remember the context of those comments. These guys are more than happy to take a Norinco frame & slide and then begin to BUILD a great 1911 on that platform. That build would include a lot of work to the frame and slide as well to bring it up to the standard of their usual work. Their excitement is over the fact that they can get (well not any more in the US) a raw build frame (in a Norinco) for less than the price of just a slide from a company such as Caspian. There would be noting recognizably "Norinco" about that gun once Bill Wilson was finished his build.

Sorry for the long winded speech... :D I guess I just want to make sure that new shooters aren't misinterpreting what is being said about Norinco STEEL and thinking that it means that Norinco guns are superior to the models that they were cloned from... Again, great guns for the price no doubt; but not necessarily better guns than the NA made guns that they are copies of. :)
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Great post!
 
Just to a 2 cents to krausb's post,

When a Norinco is referred to as a good gun to "start" with, it usually means it is a great gun as the "start of a project"....... The newer ones shoot well out of the box, WITH a trigger job, and a great gun if someone is on a tight budget.

Of course you can pay a LOT more, and you get more, but nothing beats the Norinco for value, meaning a cheap, reliable shooting iron.
 
So who said they were "better". If your refering to my posts on any forums or incorrigibles, I don't think either of us (or anyone else who chimed in on the positive side) were saying they were better, merely that they were worth looking at for the price -- no hard feelings but again if your refering to my posts and/or incorrigibles, I think we are in 100% agreement with your post, so I'm missing the point of your statement about "recent (well intentioned) overly enthusiastic comments". The info on the steel is fact. That said, you can start with a great piece of the best steel and still make a terrible product. I think if you read what's been posted, these posts noted essentially the same comments you have made including the fact that they have been used as a starting point for some quality custom 1911's. BTW, personally I've been shooting handguns for 50+ years. I may not have the round count that you may have had but I think I've seen/shot enough and owned some truly quality pieces. I also have materials technology and chemical engineering qualifications long enough to fill a book. Just trying to set the record straight - no offence.


krausb said:
This is a good point and one that seems to need restating in light of some of the recent (well intentioned) overly enthusiastic comments made about the Norinco Super Guns recently. Many well meaning comments have been coming from people that are not necessarily experienced shooters, that do not have any hands on experience with the Norinco 1911s... But it is easy to get excited when you read a post about one engineer's opinion about the quality of the steel used to make Norinco frames.

As posted in other threads, if you actually sat down with a Norinco 1911 in hand and evaluated next to a more expensive North American manufactured 1911, you would find that the Norinco would be "worth" (after all, worth is relative) way more than the $349 that the new Norincos are selling for here in Canada. If you were to shoot one head to head with a more expensive NA manufactured 1911, you would still find that the Norinco shoots and feels better than its $349 price should allow it to.

But to be clear, a $350 Norinco is NOT the total equal of an $800 - $1200 North American manufactured gun... but it is pretty close to being 70% - 80% of the gun for less than a third of the price; maybe even closer to 90% if you don't take finish into account. That does make it an amazing bargain for its selling price.

Is it a great 1911 for the price? Absolutely, no question that it is a great 1911 for the price. But it does not, however, make it a great 1911. A Norinco still needs a bit of work to make it a "great" 1911.

When people like Bill Wilson speak well of the Norinco frames, remember the context of those comments. These guys are more than happy to take a Norinco frame & slide and then begin to BUILD a great 1911 on that platform. That build would include a lot of work to the frame and slide as well to bring it up to the standard of their usual work. Their excitement is over the fact that they can get (well not any more in the US) a raw build frame (in a Norinco) for less than the price of just a slide from a company such as Caspian. There would be noting recognizably "Norinco" about that gun once Bill Wilson was finished his build.

Sorry for the long winded speech... :D I guess I just want to make sure that new shooters aren't misinterpreting what is being said about Norinco STEEL and thinking that it means that Norinco guns are superior to the models that they were cloned from... Again, great guns for the price no doubt; but not necessarily better guns than the NA made guns that they are copies of. :)
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sinokid: No offence taken! And likewise, none intended on my part. :) My comments were not aimed at anyone in particular. I know we are reading form the same play book, so to speak. I guess I was just hoping to add a bit of clarification for the sake of new shooters. I have owned a few Norincos and like them for what they are. Far from perfect, but worth every penny (and then some!) of their current selling prices!
 
krausb said:
sinokid: No offence taken! And likewise, none intended on my part. :) My comments were not aimed at anyone in particular. I know we are reading form the same play book, so to speak. I guess I was just hoping to add a bit of clarification for the sake of new shooters. I have owned a few Norincos and like them for what they are. Far from perfect, but worth every penny (and then some!) of their current selling prices!
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You're ahead of me on that count. Although I tried a few Norinco's at the range including a couple of 1911's, I've never actually owned one. I don't have a .45 in my collection, so I'm seriously considering an "Armco-ized" Norinco just for fun at a bargain price. The other option is a GSG 1911. I've heard good things about them, but never seen one and I don't even know who sells them. Any AB dealers?
 
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