Forend Pressure vs. Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T)

[cyclone]

Given all the "hullabaloo" about accuracy being impacted (no pun intended! ) by pressure against the barrel along the forend , any comments on why the Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) was full-wood...........or was that just the way things were done then?........

 

[MapleSugar]

I've heard the Enfield needs upward pressure at the tip (3lbs. I think) and I believe the target barrels were cork bedded along the length of the barrel channel.

Just a quick, uninformed answer. I'm sure Smellie, or someone else more experienced, will give you the full dope.

 

[redryder]

MInute of man at 100 yds is plenty accurate for the intended purposes of those rifles.

 

[Tyler]

For prolonged accuracy, and to reduce vertical stringing of rounds at the POI as the barrel heats up, you'll need some upward pressure at the forend. The more an unsupported barrel heats up, the more it sags under its own weight.

Hunting rifles are fine with free floated and thin barrels, but combat rifles aren't.

At least that's my uninformed opinion.

 

[Tyler]

MInute of man at 100 yds is plenty accurate for the intended purposes of those rifles.

Not quite.

Try 500 yards and beyond.

 

[purple]

IAW Cdn Army EMEI, between 2 and 7 lbs pressure was required to lift the bbl out of contact with the forend tip. The grouping standard for the No4 Mk 1(T) was 5 shots in a 3 inch square @ 100 yds.

That isn't exactly gilt edged accuracy. In my experience any properly set up No4 with a sound bbl and good ammo should be capable of the same. The most consistently accurate No 4 I've shot belonged to a hunting partner. I used to handload for him and check it at the range every year. It was scoped with a chopped bbl and the durn thing would always turn out 1 inch groups @ 100 yds with either W760 or H414 and a 180gr Speer bullet.

I'd like to think that most "T" rifles would surpass the 3 inch standard. My 03A4 Springfield and M1C and M1D Garands certainly will.

 

[cie]

Variances in barrel/stock contact pressure affect accuracy. A consistent pressure does not. Free floating a barrel is the simplest means of achieving consistency, but it is not the only way. Lee Enfields were most commonly regulated but setting up an appropriate amount of pressure at the end of the fore stock.

 

[tiriaq]

"The more an unsupported barrel heats up, the more it sags under its own weight."

Exactly how hot would a barrel have to be to start sagging under its own weight?

 

[desporterizer]

Exactly how hot would a barrel have to be to start sagging under its own weight?

You need a barrel, dial gauge & torch to find out for sure but I figure about 800 deg will get it sagging a bit. Hard to do by just shooting it.

 

[Beater]

i have had 3 new #4 T rifles in my life. one i took out of grease. all were brit rifles. all had free floated bbls

 

[Lee Enfield]

IAW Cdn Army EMEI, between 2 and 7 lbs pressure was required to lift the bbl out of contact with the forend tip. The grouping standard for the No4 Mk 1(T) was 5 shots in a 3 inch square @ 100 yds.

That isn't exactly gilt edged accuracy. In my experience any properly set up No4 with a sound bbl and good ammo should be capable of the same. The most consistently accurate No 4 I've shot belonged to a hunting partner. I used to handload for him and check it at the range every year. It was scoped with a chopped bbl and the durn thing would always turn out 1 inch groups @ 100 yds with either W760 or H414 and a 180gr Speer bullet.

I'd like to think that most "T" rifles would surpass the 3 inch standard. My 03A4 Springfield and M1C and M1D Garands certainly will.

With the ammo available in the day...

 

[Lee Enfield]

i have had 3 new #4 T rifles in my life. one i took out of grease. all were brit rifles. all had free floated bbls

Yes, they are "free floated" from the knox form bedding to the muzzle bearing.

 

[Tyler]

Exactly how hot would a barrel have to be to start sagging under its own weight?

Smart ass.

Why do tanks have a Muzzle Reference System that compensate for barrel droop then?

Anyways....

The application of the Accurizer as a pressure point in the forend of the stock resulted in reducing unwanted vertical barrel deflection from temperature change by over 66% compared to the movement of an unsupported free floated barrel in these tests.

So.... having a barrel support near the end of the stock will reduce vertical shot dispersion as the barrel heats up from repeated firing. Not by much, but evidently enough to justify mass producing millions of combat rifles with just that feature.

http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/barmovpg3.htm

 

[mg4201]

if that were the case .....

Then bench rest rifles wouldn't be free floated. also a tank cannon is much more bore than barrel as opposed to a rifle which is much more barrel than bore

 

[Tyler]

Then bench rest rifles wouldn't be free floated.

A No4 Mk1 barrel is not a bench rest barrel.

A soldier in combat is going to fire much faster and much more ammo to boot.

Apples to oranges.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

The test for every No.4's bedding is to stand the rifle on its butt and with two hands press the barrel up off the bottom of the foreend tip. There should be a few pounds of resistence, otherwise the bedding is not within specification. The British were still encumbered with old attitudes from Tower muskets and foreends attached to barrels with pins.

Give those old buggers the credit for fighting and winning wars from the late 1890's through the Korean War with thoroughly proven rifle design principles that seem anachronisms today. They managed to understand a careful ballet dance of many parts and pressures which has one takedown screw and a dozen little dinky angled surfaces.

The L42A1 sniper rifle is free floated, but it has a much stiffer barrel and a shorter foreend. But the No.4 needs foreend pressure. As for out of the grease sniper rifles with no foreend pressure, maybe they weren't issued for exactly that reason ...?

 

[H4831]

A short, heavy barrel may work great while free floated, but thinner, longer barrels require front end support, to bring out their best accuracy. In what I call the glory years of shooting, from a year or two after WW2, and fading out in the 1960s, there were so many shooting matches and so much general shooting activity. It was pretty well agreed that for the average sporting weight rifle barrel, a front pressure of six pounds was about right. Target shooters often carried a small, spring scale in their kit, so they could check the barrel pressure of their rifle.
I have often improved the accuracy of a rifle with a free floated barrel, by inserting fore end pressure.

 

[cyclone]

A short, heavy barrel may work great while free floated, but thinner, longer barrels require front end support, to bring out their best accuracy.

Good Coles-Notes reference!.......

 

[Ganderite]

If a barrel does not have forend pressure, you can test the rifle by gluing in a piece or two of ammo box cardboard. If it shoots better with some pressure, then you can bed it that way.

 

[bigedp51]

Any No.4 Enfield sent to Holland and Holland for conversion to a No.4 (T) sniper rifle was rejected outright and sent back to their owning organisation if the rifle did not have the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip when received by Holland and Holland.

The minimal acceptable group size for the No.4 (T) was a group one inch wide by three inches high at 100 yards, the Armourers could further adjust up pressure to reduce group size of the returned No.4 (T) rifles.
(why do you think the up pressure requirement was "between" 2 and 7 pounds)

A normally stocked Remington 700 has 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip.

There are two ways to tune a rifle for better accuracy.
1. Reload the ammunition for that rifle to achieve the best accuracy.
2. Bedding the rifle to shoot issued military ammunition by adjusting the up pressure at the fore end tip.

Both methods above control barrel vibrations and accuracy.

The L42 and the No.5 Enfield were the only Enfields with free floating barrels.

The King screw or forward trigger guard screw is the fulcrum point of the fore stock. The bedding and how tight the the fit at the draws area controls up pressure at the fore end tip.

Draws area contact points.

If you can insert a feeler gauge between the rear of the fore stock and the receiver socket you have wood shrinkage and your bedding needs to be adjusted. BUT first try oiling the stock with "RAW" linseed oil to see if the wood will re-hydrate and "grow" to its original size.