Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rick, you are one of the few guys I trust when it comes to this stuff......what's your opinion on how my beloved 338 Fed would fit into this little triangle?
Ultimate do everything but not over do anything cartridge for all big game hunting
- Thread starter Camp Cook
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Rick, you are one of the few guys I trust when it comes to this stuff......what's your opinion on how my beloved 338 Fed would fit into this little triangle?
Originally Posted by Rembo
7mm Rem Mag with 160's at 3000 or 30-06 with 165's at 2900........recoil the same, trajectory favours the 7 but only out where most of us have no business shooting anyway.
I have been researching the 338 Fed lately myself...Roger at Shooter's Choice has a nice little Kimber in that cartridge that has been on my mind lately...I don't see any real world difference in the ballistic charts out to 300 yards.
Having said the above I spent last weekend tramping around the Pembina River with my oldest son,..I was carrying a 1953 Model 70 Fwt in 308 with factory Federal ammo in it....so what do I know?
7mm Rem Mag with 160's at 3000 or 30-06 with 165's at 2900........recoil the same, trajectory favours the 7 but only out where most of us have no business shooting anyway.
I have been researching the 338 Fed lately myself...Roger at Shooter's Choice has a nice little Kimber in that cartridge that has been on my mind lately...I don't see any real world difference in the ballistic charts out to 300 yards.
Having said the above I spent last weekend tramping around the Pembina River with my oldest son,..I was carrying a 1953 Model 70 Fwt in 308 with factory Federal ammo in it....so what do I know?
I'm thinking the same way lately. It resolves the long distance thing for sheep and pronghorn with 130 grainers at 3050-3100 fps. Go to 150s and you've got bears, moose and elk.
But if you want really big bears, then a .375 H&H would be a better fit for that task.
So yeah, one gun for all purposes would be .30-06. Jack of all trades, though it seems just scootching in on the heavy stuff.
But best fit would be two guns: .270 Win and .375 H&H magnum.Today's advice has been brought to you by the words 'armchair' and 'quarterback'.
I have to say I am totally surprised at the many positive comments on the 30-06 and I have to agree with most of them even I like the 30-06 and feel that everyone should have one.
Me I was without one for a while but purchased a Rem 700 LSS from Rembo last year I then had the barrel shortened to 20" by Guntech and mounted a VX3 2.5-8X36 B&C reticle scope onto it I had also glass bedded it and installed a Kwik-Klip conversion kit but was limited by magazine length and wasn't able to seat the long high BC bullets I was working with out far enough to get the kind of groups I was looking for so I removed it and reinstalled the original drop plate and haven't had the time to finish working up a load for it yet but when I do I guarantee I will be packing it around a lot.
I still think the 270 Wby is a better ballistic choice due to it's flatter trajectories and I wouldn't hesitate to use a 140gr TSX @ 3300fps on a grizzly one shot thru the lungs and it would be down mind you I wouldn't hesitate to use a properly loaded 30-06 either.
Me I was without one for a while but purchased a Rem 700 LSS from Rembo last year I then had the barrel shortened to 20" by Guntech and mounted a VX3 2.5-8X36 B&C reticle scope onto it I had also glass bedded it and installed a Kwik-Klip conversion kit but was limited by magazine length and wasn't able to seat the long high BC bullets I was working with out far enough to get the kind of groups I was looking for so I removed it and reinstalled the original drop plate and haven't had the time to finish working up a load for it yet but when I do I guarantee I will be packing it around a lot.
I still think the 270 Wby is a better ballistic choice due to it's flatter trajectories and I wouldn't hesitate to use a 140gr TSX @ 3300fps on a grizzly one shot thru the lungs and it would be down mind you I wouldn't hesitate to use a properly loaded 30-06 either.
Statements like this one are one of the problems with forums. Some newbee reads this stuff and takes it as gospel. Thinks he shoot away at targets 800 yards away just because he has a cannon in his hands that he cannot properly handle to start with. This post is quite obviously from someone who has practically zero experience in the woods. Let's get back to sanity. Read H4831's post again, Ball Coeff!! Eagleye.
800 yard shots? My goodness. And here I was thinking anything past 300 was far...
The various 375's we have are the epitome of "do everything, without overdoing it". They even have the same trajectory as the heavily touted 30-06, only with heavier bullets. They are able to reach out on the long shots, but heavy enough to put the hurt on close-in, and all without kicking the crap out of a guy or breaking the bank. The 375's do it all. It's maybe not a beginner's rifle, but it's certainly a hunter's rifle.
The various 375's we have are the epitome of "do everything, without overdoing it". They even have the same trajectory as the heavily touted 30-06, only with heavier bullets. They are able to reach out on the long shots, but heavy enough to put the hurt on close-in, and all without kicking the crap out of a guy or breaking the bank. The 375's do it all. It's maybe not a beginner's rifle, but it's certainly a hunter's rifle.
Yes Eagleye, and what I thought was significant, was that Hosea Sarber often carried a 375 H&H for protection of the hunters he guided.
But in this case, going after a known killer bear, by himself, in really thick bush and devils club, he chose the fast handling and good sights for the job, on his light 30-06 rifle, instead of the more powerful, but not as nice handling ability, of the 375.
If you like that, then you'd love a 140 TSX at 3500 out of an STW. I've killed a pile of game with it, but when I leave for my brown bear hunt in 2 weeks the #### tabernac Sp? was never even considered.
The whole one gun for everything debate is fun, but realistically the people who are actually trying to do it all seldom have any interest in doing it with one rifle.
Also, the debate always starts with one rifle for everything (which by law is going to be a .375 minimum), but the exclusions, exceptions and qualifiers start to come out shortly after that. The usual pattern is drop Africa first, then eliminate the big bears because few are going to hunt them anyway. Then drop long range, anything other than broadside and so on and the poster eventually ends up back at whatever he happens to already be shooting. Chances are if it's something between a .270 and a .300 he'll be farly well equiped in the watered down do everything category. If he happens to be from B.C. the chances of it being a .338 Win Mag sky-rockets, but they aren't as quick to write off the griz.
When one leaves the arm chair and his own backyard it's interesting to see what the people who stroked a cheque actually bring when its not theoretical anymore. What I see is guys pulling a lot of .300s out of the case.
With careful powder choices and lighter TSXs, it'll even give your .270 Roy and my beloved STWs a run for its money in banjo strings and vapor trails..
I don't shoot a 270 Wby anymore this is my sons one real hunting rifle now I have something that fills the bill for everything out there from 17 cal to 458 cal now that I have sold my 280 Rem I have a huge hole between 6mm & 30 cal unless you could my 270 cal 6.8spc and with my way of thinking your STW with its high velocities will fit into the overdoes it category of to much recoil...
For hunting and only hunting, then 30/06 is the #1 choice obviously, due to its various size of gr bullets. Even Grizzly hunting with some 220gr bullets would do the job. I think that the Inuit people actually use .270 and 30/06 for hunting Polar Bears. They don't use 375 H&H.
If target shooting will be done also, with the gun, then I would go with a .308
If I had only 1 gun for hunting everything, then I would choose 30/06, just for its versatility.
If target shooting will be done also, with the gun, then I would go with a .308
If I had only 1 gun for hunting everything, then I would choose 30/06, just for its versatility.
I was feeling bad for not haveing a 6.5 or a 8mm, but feel much better now.
Normally what I do is pretend I'm choking and rush out of the room when the conversation turns to these embarrassing absenses, but that trick only works a few times.You have got to do something about that gapeing hole, and one caliber isn't going to cut it. You need a .25, 6.5mm. .270, and 7mm. Granted there's some overlap there, but overlap is good. Take shingles for instance, they overlap and we all like them.
How do you like that for a water-tight argument?Oh, the STW kicks a little less than .300 Win Mag. Hardly a problem, but it eats barrels. That can be.
A .300 will shoot every bullet the 30-06 will, and do it a couple to 400 fps faster.
Then why not go to the Weatherby .300mag or one of the other high folutin mags.
Then again why play with a 180 when a 338 will handle 250gns?
Then again why play with a 338 when a 375 will handle 300gns.
See where this goes.
A 30-06 is the best average round for the avergae guy.
Thanks for the comments.
Here is some more on the B & C and Grancel Fitz. I have the Boone and Crocket Club 1952 book of records. This is the first book on the new, and current, system of scoring trophies. These pictures are from this book.
I also have Grancel Fitz's book, North American Head Hunting."
I've had 3 of them (.300 Weatherbys), down to one right now. One actually got rebarrelled to .300 Win and it shoots one heck of a lot better without the pre-eroded throat. The other is a bit of an embarrassment because my Winnies are outrunning it with smaller charges of the same powder. And not by a little.
Actually it will handle 275 grain A-Frames rather nicely, at least my 7 pound Kimber in .338 Win Mag does. Then there's the 300 grain SMKs I throw around in the Edge. They are rather gratifying when the wind kicks up.A better question would be, why would you shoot 180, 210 or .225s in a .338 when the .30 calibers handle that range of bullets?
Actually, it goes to at least 350 grains but commonly, sure 270-300 grains is about right. I've got 2 .375s, it took me 14 months to shoot out the barrel on the first one. That's a pretty good trick, you should try it sometime. Invigorateing, with just the right touch of cavalier bravado. It's a very good training aid for guns that are actually big.
The average person has one ball, one tit and an IQ of 100. Half of the people are even dumber. I'm not saying you have to be dumb or deformed to shoot a 30-06.....................................................but the bigger .30 have some very real advantages in trajectory, horsepower and wind-drift. Now you could argue that the average shooter can't shoot well enough or far enough to tell the difference. That's his problem.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Over normal hunting ranges, I rather doubt that a fast .30 kills any better than a .30/06. Where the .300s shine is when the range reaches out to where the .30/06 bullet has given up too much velocity to expand reliably. But regardless of the range, if your bullet has enough velocity to expand and enough momentum to exit the game animal, that animal is dead, and another 400 fps won't make it any deader.
Velocity and weight work together as momentum resulting in penetration. The reason a fragile bullet doesn't penetrate is because it looses mass, which is a primary component of momentum. Thus when we compare a well constructed light fast bullet that retains all of its mass to a slower, heavier, and equally well constructed bullet that retains all of its mass, we find that both bullets will penetrate similarly because the velocity of the light bullet makes up for the mass of the heavier bullet. But it is the bullet with the largest frontal area, not necessarily the bullet with the highest velocity that produces the largest wound volume. This is why the 220 gr .30/06 bullet was the choice of the old time bear hunters, because the long lead core allowed expansion to reach a greater diameter than the lighter 30s and the weight provided sufficient momentum that the large frontal area did not compromise penetration.
The .300 magnums are wonderful game cartridges. They do have their advantages and it is easy to be impressed by them. But despite the .300's prowess on the rifle range, for long-range hunting, a big case .338 is more wonderful.
Velocity and weight work together as momentum resulting in penetration. The reason a fragile bullet doesn't penetrate is because it looses mass, which is a primary component of momentum. Thus when we compare a well constructed light fast bullet that retains all of its mass to a slower, heavier, and equally well constructed bullet that retains all of its mass, we find that both bullets will penetrate similarly because the velocity of the light bullet makes up for the mass of the heavier bullet. But it is the bullet with the largest frontal area, not necessarily the bullet with the highest velocity that produces the largest wound volume. This is why the 220 gr .30/06 bullet was the choice of the old time bear hunters, because the long lead core allowed expansion to reach a greater diameter than the lighter 30s and the weight provided sufficient momentum that the large frontal area did not compromise penetration.
The .300 magnums are wonderful game cartridges. They do have their advantages and it is easy to be impressed by them. But despite the .300's prowess on the rifle range, for long-range hunting, a big case .338 is more wonderful.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I've personally run into 19 grizzlies while hunting, with the closest being 12 feet. I have never had to pull the trigger on one. I have had to pull the trigger on dozens and dozens of deer, sheep, antelope, black bear, etc.
For the 85% of my hunting, the 7RM is more than necessary (I could easily get by with a .243 or my .25-06 for this stuff), for 14% it's just perfect (like elk, moose), and for the remaining 1% it might be a little light (if I ever do end up shooting a grizz). The cartridge recoils light enough that I can ensure the utmost in shot precision. It shoots flat and straight enough that I can successfully make the long shots that I sometimes run into, even in a slight breeze (my last animal was a BH sheep taken about a month ago at 400 yards exactly). For me this is the perfect compromise.
For the 85% of my hunting, the 7RM is more than necessary (I could easily get by with a .243 or my .25-06 for this stuff), for 14% it's just perfect (like elk, moose), and for the remaining 1% it might be a little light (if I ever do end up shooting a grizz). The cartridge recoils light enough that I can ensure the utmost in shot precision. It shoots flat and straight enough that I can successfully make the long shots that I sometimes run into, even in a slight breeze (my last animal was a BH sheep taken about a month ago at 400 yards exactly). For me this is the perfect compromise.
