Who likes to play with high pressure?

Well here's the thing, I'm the guy that tunes
my 2stroke to the ragged edge, turbo charges
my sled, drives too fast, rides too fast
and I fully comprehend the consequences.
My primers are not smeared flat, my bolt lifts like
butter, I'm up around 7 loads through
each case, I aneal each time, my chamber
leaves .001" headspace on the shoulder. There's no primer
extrusion. My only indications are the primers edges are
a little sharper, and I can see where the
ejector opening leaves it's mark... Barely. I'm not about to back down 175fps, nor
go deeper for more fps. I bought the .300 win mag to be some what economical in the energy vs cost category. I like to
see what I can get away with, so far Im more concerned with being hit by a
kamikazi crow than my gun blowing up.... At the moment.
 
Why not go faster if you can.......

case & point;

I have 2 loads for one of my 30-06s.....

-load one is at the bottom of published loads and gives good accuracy.
-Load 2 is near the top of published loads but still a full grain under max..... It shows some deformation of the primers but nothing you would call near 'flat'.
-Load 2 usually groups about a quarter inch larger than load one.

Which load do you choose?

Personally I chose load 2. The reason...... Load 2 is 270 fps faster than load 1. This means I can set my optic for +1.7" at 100y and still be -2.1" @ 300y. Perfect for where I hunt.

I will usually keep it under published max, but every once in a while you get that one group with a load that is right on the ragged edge and you start thinking..... 'what if I went one step higher'.......

Sometimes I will try the next load..... sometimes I won't...... Depends on the pressure signs I've been getting & temp & weather & how much time I have & am I happy with one of the groups I already have.......

It all comes down to what YOU want to do SAFELY..... Something tells me if you are asking the question you really should stay with-in established/published maximums.......

Cheers!
 
I'm not asking the question if I shoud be cutting back, I won't because I'm sure I'm quite safe and even have a ways to go before I venture into the "is it gonna blow" level. I'm simply wondering how many others run with pressure signs and how many cut back. Now I'll tell you I'm not retarded, if I had to hammer my bolt back, my primers were flowing like wax and my pockets were big enough to sit in I'd be cutting back but I'm not even close.
 
Oh, related to another post... I too want as flat shooting as I can squeeze. The flatter it shoots the better I get away with poor ranging and adjusting. I could almost go for a laser beam if it could break/punch holes/vaporize and kill. I'm not a mathlete, I want to make as few calcuations as possible, I like guns, not calcuators.
 
When I was doing load development for 223 and 17FB I found the most accurate to be about 1gr below the published max on Hodgdon's website. If I'm making little groups I don't care if it can be made to go a little faster but I miss a small target at a long range because the accuracy falls off.
 
I'm not asking the question if I shoud be cutting back, I won't because I'm sure I'm quite safe and even have a ways to go before I venture into the "is it gonna blow" level. I'm simply wondering how many others run with pressure signs and how many cut back. Now I'll tell you I'm not retarded, if I had to hammer my bolt back, my primers were flowing like wax and my pockets were big enough to sit in I'd be cutting back but I'm not even close.
Given what you said you're doing, i don't think you'll have an issue.
Provided you are very careful.
Remember, doing a simple thing like shifting the position of the scale, and not re-zeroing it when you are that close can result in big trouble.
I wasn't suggesting that anyone load way below max charges, only that you pay attention to what your rifle is telling you.
The rifle has a soft voice when it comes to warnings, and a big one when it comes to not listening.
 
I'm not asking the question if I shoud be cutting back, I won't because I'm sure I'm quite safe and even have a ways to go before I venture into the "is it gonna blow" level. I'm simply wondering how many others run with pressure signs and how many cut back. Now I'll tell you I'm not retarded, if I had to hammer my bolt back, my primers were flowing like wax and my pockets were big enough to sit in I'd be cutting back but I'm not even close.

I was actively shooting throughout the period that I call the glory years of shooting and hunting, from a year or two after WW2 and fading out in the 1960s.
Those writers who we now look back on with nostalgia, like Elmer Keith, Townsend Whelan, Pete Kuhloff, Warren Page, Jack O'Connor and many more, were in their hayday and most of us ordinary shooters were following their advice, religously. If there was one thing all those shooters and writers had in common, it was load your cartridges to full tilt. I don't ever remember a single writer saying to reduce your loads for better acuracy, or in an attempt to find better accuracy. If a cartridge was designed for 58,000 psi, then that is where it was most efficient.
Hand loading was touted as the way to get full power out of your rifle, as many factory loads were not loaded to full power. The writers of the day pointed out that this was particularilly true with the 30-06 and the 7 x 57, as both calibres were loaded light by the factories, because of some old, weaker military rifles they could be fired in. The writers would tell us that either of those two cartridges could be loaded to well above industry printed loading charts, if you had a modern, strong bolt action rifle.
Warren Page was probably the most successful of all bench rest shooters. He was shooting editor of Field and Stream magazine for something like 23 years. Among his accomplishments was winning the US National Match bench rest shooting trophy for nine years. Many wildcats also had his name on them.
I have his book, The Accurate Rifle. On page 153 he is talking about loading the 308. This is a quote. "The basic loading concept for the 308 in accuracy usage is as with other cases--full."
Here is another interesting quote about reloading, on page 174 of his book.
"To the layman, the business of weighing out powder in ultra precise fashion seems to be the chief requirement in making precise ammunition. This is about 90% bunk."
He goes on to say that most bench rest shooters (of the day) load their ammunition at the match. He further states that virtually all powder dispensing is done at the match by machine measures. He later describes the Lyman measure as being one of the accurate measures.
I tend to go along with the advice of the old time shooters and can't get too excited about so much on these threads that is contrary to the principals those earlier shooters used.
 
Bruce, there is a lot of common sense in what you say BUT, there were many mistakes made back then. As far as Warren Page goes, he did win a lot of matches but his rifles weren't off the shelf sporters either. They were built on mostly new modern actions and to very exact tolerances. Therein, lies the crux of this discussion. To say that Keith was a proponent of higher pressures is a bit vague. Keith, liked big, heavy bullets. Townsend Whelan, thought the 30-30 Win was a real mover, when it first came out. He also felt the same way about the 30-06 later. I do agree though, in the end, they were velocity freaks. They pioneered a lot of different techniques as well. Not all of their ideas were exactly safe. There is a reason, many of their ideas, fell out of print and favor. Litigation.
Admittedly, they grew up in a different world from that of today. In many ways, it was a better world. Not so full and complicated. I to emulated those fellows and their brethren. I loved those heady days of walking into the local hardware store or gas station and viewing or purchasing the inevitable firearms racks. There was a local implement dealer, that would bring in brand new 98 Mauser's by the crate and sell them for $15 each, with matching bayonet. There was another local hardware store, Marshall Wells, that displayed handguns in the store front windows. Not even locked up at night. Those were different, though heady, wonderful days. I miss them.

Back to the original topic, safety and higher pressures. I don't worry about reaching max pressures, according to the manuals or even going slightly over them either. It's only good common sense that in a modern action, including 98s, P14s and P17s etc that there is a margin of safety built into them. A good example, is the 96 Swede Mauser, the Swedes, build just about any standard length, non belted cartridge into them. They use the same and even higher pressures than North American ammo manufacturers. In Europe, there seems to be a caveat, that the onus is on the owner to know enough about his/her firearm to do the right thing.

Now, today's modern powders are much different from what you and I grew up with. Better in many ways and more consistent. Lots of information on them as well. Not so in our earlier days and we had to experiment. In the case of the 30-06, it was literally possible to fill the case with 4831, to the point that you could barely get the heaviest bullets available, to just seat deep enough to chamber, and not expect it to come apart in your face. That just isn't a save practise anymore.

As I mentioned above, pressures generated during ignition are not incremental. It isn't just a simple thing like, increasing the powder charge by 5%, will increase the pressure curve by 5%. It could actually increase the curve by 100% or more. Is it worth it for a 10% of 5% gain in velocity?

If someone wants to play with pressure curves, study up on the powder first. Find out its parameters in as much detail as possible. Most powders are developed to perform in specific case capacities and bore diameters. Change those circumstances and the powder reacts much differently, in regards to pressure. PO Ackley, took me under his wing, one week in Utah. 1970, I walked into his workshop yard. He was just getting to work. He explained to me that his shop wasn't open. It was Saturday and in Utah, Saturdays are a special day to the Mormons. He had just dropped by to pick up a couple of rifles for a shoot on Sunday. Good guy, he asked me to come along. Now seeing as he had never seen me in his life before but remembered me as a phone customer, that was pretty big of him.

He started to explain the ramifications of pressures and the reactions of steel. He had hired a very good metallurgical engineer, to work and conduct studies in his shop. They did a lot of mathematical calculations on the expansion rate of gasses generated by burning powders, according to their quickness rates. They had developed several tables, according to manufacturer of powders, steel makers, and bullet makers. He was adamant that steel strengths varied in every batch, the same goes for powder and bullet jackets. In the end, there were far to many variables to make any of it an exact science. This is why the manuals were first produced. To keep some sanity in the practise of hand loading and safety. In those days, 2-4 inch groups, were considered not bad. One MOA rifles, weren't the norm but a treasure to cherish. About 20 years ago, the Juenke Gauge changed all of that. With this gauge, it was possible for bullet manufacturers to generate consistent jacket thicknesses all the way around the bullet, with little or no thickness variation. Beware factory seconds, inconsistent jacket thickness may be the reason. Nowadays, a one MOA rifle is pretty much the norm.

If you are cognisant as to the ramifications of increased powder charges, with the powders you are using, go ahead and experiment. When you've made any significant change in components or powder quantity, secure the rifle to a tire or some other device, stand back and with a trigger actuator (string) pull the trigger. Eject the cartridge case, if possible, and measure the case head for expansion, check for other stress indicators as well, like extreme case lenght stretch and ejector smears. Maybe, use a punch to see if you can push out the primer with finger pressure.

Play if you want. It's fun. Just use your head when safety is concerned. Don't give those hot loads out to the newbie, next door. Those loads, may just be his/her undoing with their particular rifle.
 
Well Gerald, you've covered a lot of ground there, but I can't for the life of me, figure out why you aimed it at me like that. One thing I can guarantee, I was hunting big game and shooting big rifles, including various hand loads, before you started to school, in grade one.
In a lifetime of shooting and handloading the worst that has ever happened from handloading was I once blew a primer. It was caused not by an overload, but from me neglecting to trim a 270 case, like I should have.
I have actually started a considerable number of men in handloading. I have recommended equipment and told them what componets to get for the rifles they were reloading for. Some of these men knew little, or virtually nothing, about rifles or shooting, when they came to me for instructions on reloading. With some I kept on as a guru with them for some time. In every single case they went on to successful reloading.
I never ever, gave any newbie a bum steer, which may have involved safety toward them. I have been the complete opposite, in always stressing safety, most especially in anything to do with shooting or reloading.
In my thread I told how things once were in the shooting fraternity, including how no prominent shooters of the day, reduced their loads, to strive for better accuracy. With their rifles properly bedded they would shoot full power loads accurately. You are right in that a five, shot one inch group at 100 yards was the gold standard for sporting rifles. If this could be obtained with full power loading, who gave a rats fanny, whether or not a change of loading may lower the group a ÂĽ inch, on their hunting rifle? It seems like people were more practical at that time.
Gerald, if you would bring a mug of coffee, black, when you come to my table at the Salmon Arm gun show, we could continue.
 
Bruce, I would be glad to have a cup of coffee with you. I have a couple of tables there as well.
The comments were not explicitly directed at you. Nor were they intended to be. I was just replying to your statements. I know you have a lot of experience in hand loading. I know you are knowledgeable. I won't even try to take any of that away from you.

The thing I'm trying to impress here is that minor transgressions to the manuals information are harmless. To the uninitiated or easily impressionable, what you and I would consider minor aren't the same as what they would consider minor. The main point I was trying to make, is that a hand loader, research the powders parameters before they start to push the envelope. Also, they should research the information in the manuals. As we both know, manuals have misprints, and differ greatly from one another. Much of the information is made up in deference to early, weaker actions. One very good example is the 30-30 Winchester. In the Model 94, it's adequate. In a Ruger #1, Swiss Straight Pull K1911 conversion, Savage bolt rife or a converted Martini it's a whole different ball game. The cartridge can be loaded with a faster powder and pointed bullets, to substantially higher pressures and velocities. Wouldn't dare use those cartridges in a Mod 94. Another example, 6.5x55 Swede, in a new modern action, like a Win Mod 70, Rem 700, Sako or Tikka T3 to name a couple, the cartridge can be loaded to pressures that are accurate though dangerous in an M38 or M96. I once saw the top of a receiver on a 1900 dated M96 disappear from a round intended for a Tikka T3. The owner of the rifle had several of the milsurps and a T3, he mixed up the rounds in his rush to get to the range.

You know your stuff enough to know when to quit. Many don't and they are playing with fire. Do you remember the old "Super Vel" company? They went out of business, because they developed "extreme" powders, that gave substantial velocity increases with relatively low pressures. The problem was that they were temperature sensitive and a lot of mishaps occurred because hand loaders didn't understand the parameters of the powder. Back then, if you developed a load for your new Christmas present in January, that load could turn into a disaster in mid summer.

That is my only intent for carrying on this way. I just want people to educate themselves on what the possibilities are.
 
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Well I have a question for you guys. In my Speer manual it's telling me 76 of imr
4831 with a 150 grain bullet is max, my hodgdon magazine says
78, and yet another... I think it was Sierra's web site said 80. Why such drastic
variations?
 
Well I have a question for you guys. In my Speer manual it's telling me 76 of imr
4831 with a 150 grain bullet is max, my hodgdon magazine says
78, and yet another... I think it was Sierra's web site said 80. Why such drastic
variations?

If a book says the average 18 yo male can run 100 m. in 12 seconds, nobody would expect that every 18yo male in Canada will run 100 m. in exactly 12 seconds . Some are faster, some are slower, some might have a heart attack before they finished running 100 metres. Rifles and pressure are the same.

Reasons for differences in published reloading data? Hard to say specifically, but in general: Different lawyers and liability concerns. Different conditions. Different rifles used as a test bed. Tigher chamber, tighter throat, shorter leade, thicker brass, different lot of powder/brass/primer, different brass length, etc. etc.

Don't worry about the discrepancies between published max load data too much. There is no concrete answer or mathematical formulae to determine the maximum load in your rifle will be, you need to start at the min. load and work up. Using your example of data, you might expect to max out YOUR rifle somewhere in the 76-80 gr range.

Flattened primers by themselves aren't necessarily a pressure sign. More reliable signs of possible dangerous pressures are hard bolt lift on a fired cartridge, and primer cratering. Cratering is where the primer starts to flow back around the edges on the firing pin impression. Sometimes this is also caused by loose firing pin fit in the bolt head, but if it doesn't usually happen with your rifle and then it starts happening, your loads are too hot. The trick is to stop increasing a load BEFORE you start showing high pressure signs, because you have already f**ked up if you get that far.

Hard bolt lift is caused by the brass being stressed by high pressurer to the point it does not spring back asit would at lower more normal pressure. I have experimented with measuring brass expansion on fired cases. Methodology is to a shoot factory load and measure the case diameter just above the web. Use this measurement as a standard for your rifle - if your handloaded brass starts to expand past the diameter of the fired factory ammo - you are starting to venture into dangerous territory. This method is most reliable if the brass you reload is the same make and lot as the factory ammo you used for the refence. This pressure sign shows up just before hard bolt lift is manifested and is reasonably reliable IME.

A chronograph is almost a necesiity if you are going to go for max loads. Without it you are mostly guessing, and going by published data alone has been disappointing for me more often than not, velocity-wise. I have also found the software QUICKLOAD is a very useful tool for predicting max pressure.

I use all of these methods to determine if my handloads are safe or getting hot. I find best accuracy is usually is usally with warmer loads, but not necessarily hot loads.
 
I'm another guy who subscribes to Bruce's [H4831] way of thinking. If you want to see some warm [but not dangerous] loads, read Bob Hagel's book: "Game Loads & Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter" Bob always cautioned readers to start 3-4 grains below the max and work up, but he did not pussyfoot around. His loads are working Max, no doubt. an example is the 30-06. He shows a load that developed 2900 FPS in a 24" barrel, using Norma N205 or later, MRP. Obviously, such loads should never be attempted in a rifle of dubious strength. Jack O'Connor loaded his 270 to similar working maximums. As far as I am aware, none of these guys blew up any rifles, since they had some common sense in their approach to good hunting loads. Regards, Eagleye.
 
I always start at minimum. Yesterday I went out to work out some loads for some 150gr matchkings. I have loads from 72gr (minimum) up to 79gr (3 over max in one book, 1 over in another and 1 under another source) well anyhow I found one sweet spot is 73gr. 1-1/8" @ 200y. Then groups started to spread and started shrinking again at 76. 76 is as far as I got before light faded. Also at 76 there is just enough primer flattening to notice. I also noticed 2 case head seperations in my 72gr lot, one I snapped off with my thumb. This batch of brass is ancient and it's history unknown, some of it's life started 20years ago when my old man purchased his .300. I've been looking for the ring but it never showed up and I never bothered with reaching in with a pic to feel em out. My mistake, I just assumed it would show externally. Anyhow I reached inside all my emptys today, out of 35 fired I'm tossing all but 7. I've got another 150 or so mystery brass to check, 100 once fired and 300 new winchesters still in the bag. Now I must admit.. I'm torn between pulling the remaining 15 bullets apart or just firing them. This is a new savage, it's got the gas lugs... Is there really much to worry about?
 
Is there really much to worry about?

Your reloads, your rifle, your face. I'm not worried at all. :D

Chances are pretty good you won't have a problem with them. Chances are pretty good that you can drive a car with faulty brakes without being injured, but personally I'd just fix the brakes. If you take enough chances you'll eventually regret it.
 
Your reloads, your rifle, your face. I'm not worried at all. :D

Chances are pretty good you won't have a problem with them. Chances are pretty good that you can drive a car with faulty brakes without being injured, but personally I'd just fix the brakes. If you take enough chances you'll eventually regret it.

Exactly.
I noticed one of the old timers mention Elmer Keith, I wonder sir if you would be comfortable purchasing 44 Special Smith&Wesson revolver from him?
 
Jet I totally apreciate your safety concern. But I mean is it really unsafe to chance it? I mean has anyone been hurt or even had a current quality rifle damaged? If the odds were 1 in 10 get hurt I'd pull em, but what's the statistics? I googled it and I couldn't find a single case of injury or damage. If 1 injury in 100 000 seperations is the ratio then I'm gonna shoot, he'll if I make 100 trips down the mountain without going to the hospital Id be happy and that's not the case and I'm
not about to sell the bike.
 
One thing to remember is that newer, more precise pressure testing equipment and techniques exist today, which is why you see some loads downgraded in some manuals compared to a couple of decades ago.

I usually load for accuracy. If that accuracy is a grain below or a grain above maximum listed loads, I dont' get too worked up about it. I'll exceed max loads if it makes sense (to get better accuracy) but not just to get another 50fps in velocity. And if the load shows ANY signs of pressure, I won't use it. I don't want to fight with an even slightly sticky bolt when I am trying to put another shot into a wounded moose. ;)
 
Exactly.
I noticed one of the old timers mention Elmer Keith, I wonder sir if you would be comfortable purchasing 44 Special Smith&Wesson revolver from him?

It wouldn't bother me at all. Keith's standard .44 Special load wasn't all that high pressure by modern magnum revolver standards.

See the fourth paragraph here:
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=4

The only gun I know of that he actually blew up was a SAA in .45 Colt. It was at this point that he changed over to .44 Special, as the thicker cylinder walls allowed for higher pressures.
 
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