Rick: My hearing is just fine, thank you. When I said Stan Baker told me not to shoot STEEL shot through any Cutts compensator choke or external choke system, he meant STEEL shot, not lead shot. I could care less what any internet search said. Look at is this way: you can use a folding chair as a stepstool and you can run a temporary spare tire at 90 MPH. Either use will bite you in the arse sooner than later. Same with running steel shot in a choke tube system designed for lead shot. End of discussion.
Steel shot, velocities, and hunting.
- Thread starter Rick
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
If opened up, I really don't see an issue sending steel through an old cutts compensator. Set at IC, I'm sure he'll be fine. Shooting steel set at mod would be a whole different ballgame, and since few can be trusted not to "try" a different setting this is where trouble arises in my opinion.
madtrapper143
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I just put a case of Kent 3" steel 2's through an old Mossberg 500 pump with a Mossberg external C Lect choke set on modified. I was on a week long hunt in Manitoba. The gun shot well and killed alot of ducks and some snows. I used the gun to kind of test the opinions on external choke devices with steel shot. The end result was, the choke did not seize, it did not fly off into the mud and the setting stayed put at modified. I know 250 rounds is not alot but it worked and with no visible wear or damage. I will continue to shoot it. I guess sooner or later it will fail and fly off but so did an internal Rem Choke in a brand new 870 express on a trip last year.
regards, Darryl
regards, Darryl
I believe you.
I believe you also don't care that Briley and others make many, many of those external choke tube systems that you also presented dire warnings about. And not only are Briley and others still in business, but you don't see postings all over the internet complaining about their failings. Poly-Choke, Cutts main competitor in the external choke market of the day, says all their chokes are fine with steel, and as Cabelas and others are still selling their product it is apparent the ambulance chasing liability lawyers haven't found enough to make a case against them.
I also believe you when you say you could care less that an Internet search doesn't turn up any reports of all these terrible incidents of Cutts Compensators flying off into the heavens. That, of course, is your prerogative.
My position is (obviously) somewhat different than yours. When every guy who has a problem with a firearm #####es all over the internet in forums like these, it is strange indeed that you can't even find ONE reference to all these Cutts chokes flying off into the marshes as is supposedly happening. Not even on the shotgun specific forums. You can, however, find posts from guys asking where they can find one, guys saying they still work great, etc. And reputable gunsmiths happily willing to install them for guys who want them and can find them - in a country where there is a liability lawyer behind every tree. For example, go to shotgunworld.com and search on "cutts"... or not, as you prefer.
Occam's Razor comes to mind. Baker may have even been simply prejudiced - or wrong - as we all are frequently in our lives.
That's very moving. But it doesn't address the issue. Which is:
How is 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz of #3 or 4 steel shot going through a .755 Improved cylinder choke going to put more stress on the Cutts mount than the previous thousands of rounds of 1 7/8 oz BB's going through a .680" Super Full?
Doesn't seem to be an unreasonable way to discuss the issue. After all, I'm not going duck hunting with a folding chair or a spare tire.
Cool picture, huh?
Well, your input apparently.
Thanks for the warning.
Rick: IMHO, you totally miss the issue. Who cares what a manufacturer claims about their product? They are in the business to sell what they produce. Stan Baker knew more about shotguns than you and I will ever know. Give it up, my friend, and buy a shotgun choke tube system suitable for steel shot.
Obviously, you don't. You're warning about external chokes while Briley has been making them for quite a while with excellent success. It is apparent you believe that the sun rises and sets on Stan Baker, but he isn't the sole authority on shotguns and chokes that ever graced this planet.
Come to think of it, if I don't care what somebody claims about their product or work, why would I care about Stan Baker and his work?
Now that wouldn't be very smart of me - no smarter than saying I don't care what Briley, or Lyman, or any other successful and reputable manufacturer says or sells. Or does that rule only work for folks other than Stan Baker?
And that IS the issue. You're blind to anything but what Stan Baker told you. Which is fine - I'm sure that works for you. And I appreciate your repeatedly making the effort to offer me your warning. But I don't see the world in quite as narrow a light as you do.
This is just a guess on my part, but I'll bet Stan Baker was in the business of selling what he produced as well. And I'll also bet he made more money when he convinced somebody that something like a Cutts would fly off their shotgun and they should have him install some of his custom chokes instead.
Anybody who wants to stay in business long promotes their products/work and tells you other alternatives are inferior. That's just the way it works, and I am quite willing to believe that most of the sellers do believe their approach/product is indeed the best.
Probably did. Reminds me of another expert named Jeff Cooper who said the 9mm was inadequate as a fighting handgun cartridge - something the real world has shown to be false. Even those who sit at the right hand of God have their own personal prejudices and don't get everything right.
On the other hand, Briley and others out there aren't exactly unknown, and they appear to differ with your view of the situation - and not only have been quite successful at it, but don't appear to be swamped in lawsuits from chokes flying off in the marsh, barrels splitting, etc.
I've never been much for "the sky is falling" stories that aren't accompanied with at least a reasonable supporting argument, thanks.
So far I've heard the dire warnings, but nothing to support them. No evidence of these terrible things happening with any regularity, and no evidence these loads would stress a choke more than heavy magnum loads of big shot.
And if she does really take to hunting waterfowl, then we probably will look at getting her another shotgun. But for trying things out, this will work fine without causing the end of the world as we know it.
Rick: My final post on the subject (I promise!). You and I will have to agree to disagree. All I will say in closing is (a) you will be sorry using steel shot in a shotgun system not specifically designed for same and (b) the 9mm Luger is worthless as a combat cartridge. If Roger Penske told me a certain make of camshaft was crap in an engine, I would belive him (regardless of internet opinions or marketing hype). Stan Baker told me don't shoot steel through a 'wonder winder' or external choke system, I believe him. Jeff Cooper said the 9mm Luger cartridge was not ready for prime time. He was correct, IMHO. Real world experience and observation, IMHO, beats any and all of the internet blathering and Madison Avenue marketing. Good day and good luck.
I have tried pretty much every brand of waterfowl ammunition there is, and the best stuff that I have ever used was Federal Black Cloud. I load my shotgun with 3 1/2 #2 shot with a full choke and I regularly fold mallards from 50-60 yards away. I can also drop the occasional Canada Goose that comes flying in with #2 shot.
I have'nt tried that new Remington ammunition, because I can honestly say that I have no need to pay the extra money for it. Black Cloud ammo is the best stuff I have ever bought, and you can even get it at Canadian Tire.
I have'nt tried that new Remington ammunition, because I can honestly say that I have no need to pay the extra money for it. Black Cloud ammo is the best stuff I have ever bought, and you can even get it at Canadian Tire.
I use the winchester 1625 fps 3.5 in my Baikal mp153 with a full steel choke I liked the #2 shot over the BB you get more hits on the bird I loaded my own stell shot when we first had to go to steel with super sam wads and even T sized shot I used #2 under BB or T the idea was the smaller shot would fill in the holes . Seemed to work.
Fair enough.
And if I am not, just what will you do as penance?
The fact you can search the Internet for hours and not find a single instance of somebody reporting a Cutts Compensator flying off the end of the barrel - but lots of guys posting asking for chokes and where they can find a new one - doesn't mean much to you, does it?
You and Jeff Cooper have one other thing in common. Neither one of you ever used a 9mm in combat. You have an opinion about something you have never done nor seen firsthand.
You can certainly find instances where the 9mm has failed, but you also don't have to look far to find instances where the 45 has failed as well. Cooper liked to focus on the former and ignore the latter.
If I remember correctly, at one point Jeff Cooper was called "you f**king idiot" by a Rhodesian soldier who had used a 9mm LOTS in combat and found it perfectly suitable. A couple of the troops I serve with have also found it to be perfectly suitable in Afghanistan - which means they also have more direct knowledge than either Jeff Cooper or yourself. A WO I served under spent years fighting in Rhodesia and South Africa. He was not a gun nut by any stretch of the imagination, but also responded to any suggestion the 9mm "wasn't ready for prime time" by telling the speaker that they were a moron who obviously hadn't ever used one in combat and had no idea what they were talking about. I'll take their direct knowledge in combat, with a 9mm, over Cooper's self admitted "limited experience" in the Pacific (which to the best of my knowledge didn't involve TICs where he was fighting with a pistol of any kind).
Kinda hard to argue with personal, direct experience - or not take note of the fact somebody has no experience nor examples of a problem whatsoever.
Which is probably why Cooper's "scout rifle" has been uniformly rejected by recce dets, scouts, and the military in general. To borrow a Cooperism, it was an ingenious solution to a nonexistent problem. Cooper contributed a lot to the shooting world, was a most engaging writer, but like Stan Baker, he wasn't the fountainhead of knowledge on everything, he didn't know everything, and he was occasionally mistaken.
Turkeyslayer 1300
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Russell, Ontario
This thread has gotten pretty intense, from Cutts Compensators to 9mm's in Rhodesia, with Jeff Cooper tossed in.
Rick have you had a chance to shoot any waterfowl yet?
Rick have you had a chance to shoot any waterfowl yet?
A member here has a video of himself blowing the end off of an old Cooey single shot. And I've seen a number of ringed barrel cut-offs at a local gunsmith's place.
Unless you are measuring barrel wall thickness or magnafluxing parts, you can't tell what damage you're doing by just looking at it. It is cumulative.
I haven't; she has.
So far, The End Of The World As We Know It has not happened. The ducks died, the dogs fetched them, etc. About what you would expect. I should probably pattern it, but she bought the shells she wanted and is using them.
Right now pheasant season is open, and that's what I'm all about. If things work out here, now that elk season has ended a few hours ago, sometime this weekend we will be heading out by Conrad for a week of harassing the pheasants. And screw the ducks... besides, I keep getting this mental image of chomping down on a steel pellet. Makes me cringe. Lead is bad enough.
Nothing illegal about shooting lead in to water. As long as your not shooting at Federally managed migratory game (with the exception of murres/turres). We hunt rabbit on marshland all the time and lots of shot ends up in lakes/ponds and streams.
No, I even called Browning in Utah and talked to one of their techs. He told me off the record that you can shoot steel through all Browning Barrels (fixed choke Belgium included) without any problems. The very worst thing that can happen is a symmetrical ring bulge behind the choke. Browning cannot say this on their website due to legal issues. Just in case someone happens to do something stupid and blows the end off a barrel. FWIW he told me he uses a Auto-5 mag with a fixed choke Japanese full barrel with no 6 black cloud for all his waterfowling. Take that for what its worth.
